News and Views » Commentary

Commentary

Gwynne Dyer: Georgia's attack on Russia in 2008 lets NATO off hook

A year ago this week, Georgia attacked Russia. It was like Jamaica attacking the United States. It was such a foolish and foredoomed act that at first, most people believed Georgian propaganda blaming it all on the Russians.

Surely, Georgian president Mikheil Saakashvili wouldn’t do something so utterly stupid. But he did–and he lost, of course.

There are two hangovers from the week-long war that still have not cleared up, however. One is the lingering impression in the West, left over from the way that Western media reported the conflict at the time, that the “Russian bear” has turned nasty and expansionist. The other is a promise to Georgia that should never have been made.

In the year since the war, it has become clear that the Georgian attack, which sought to regain control of the breakaway territory of South Ossetia, was planned well in advance. The Russians only responded after their peacekeeping troops in South Ossetia came under Georgian attack, but the Georgians won the propaganda battle.

Saakashvili painted the Russians as evil aggressors, relying on Cold War stereotypes: “Russia's war on Georgia echoes events in Finland in 1939, Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968,” he told the Washington Post in August, 2008. It fit Western preconceptions, so the media went along with it.

So did U.S. presidential candidate John McCain, condemning Russia’s “violent aggression” and claiming that “Russian actions, in clear violation of international law, have no place in 21st century Europe.”

Barack Obama was more circumspect. But in the midst of an election campaign, he chose not to expose his flank to the Cold Warriors of the Republican Party by openly challenging their version of events.

The other problem, from a European perspective, was U.S. president George W. Bush’s push to get Georgia and another former Soviet republic, Ukraine, admitted to the NATO alliance. These countries are to the south of Russia, not between it and Western Europe.

Bringing them into the Western alliance would alarm and alienate the Russians. Yet there is no practical way that NATO could defend them if they got into a fight with the Russians.

Indeed, this concern may have been the main motive behind the creation of a European Union commission to investigate the origins of the war. The commission is led by Swiss diplomat Heidi Tagliavini, who has served in the area as an observer, and it has been gathering evidence for almost a year now. If its conclusions blame the war on Georgia, as seems likely, they will not be unwelcome in Brussels.

Some of those conclusions were leaked last spring to the German newsmagazine Der Spiegel, and they support the contention that Georgia deliberately concentrated its troops and launched a surprise attack on South Ossetia, with the aim of seizing control of the province before Russia could respond.

Between 16,000 and 20,000 Georgian troops, all equipped with modern U.S. weapons, attacked the South Ossetian militia and about 1,000 Russian peacekeeping troops who were stationed there on the night of August 7. Even the Georgian “peacekeeping” battalion that was also stationed in the province took part in the attack.

The local capital, Tskhinvali, fell into Georgian hands within hours, and dozens of Russian troops were killed or injured.

Moscow responded quickly, and a large Russian force, including heavy armour, was sent south from the Russian province of North Ossetia through the tunnel under the main Caucasus range (which the Georgians had failed to secure) on August 8. In one more day Georgian troops had been driven out of South Ossetia, and the Russians even followed them some distance into Georgia proper before withdrawing again at the end of the month.

Erosi Kitsmarishvili, Georgia's former ambassador to Moscow and a former confidant of Saakashvili’s, testified to the Georgian parliament last November that Georgian officials told him in April 2008 that they planned to start a war to recover Abkhazia, one of Georgia’s two breakaway regions, and had received a green light from the United States government to do so. He said the Georgian government later decided to start the war in South Ossetia, the other region, and continue into Abkhazia.

Both the evidence of observers on the ground and the testimony of disillusioned Georgian officials like Kitsmarishvili are driving the EU commission toward the conclusion that Russia merely responded to the Georgian aggression. It will be helpful to have an authoritative Western body acknowledge that Russia has not undergone some fundamental change of strategy.

The EU commission report has been postponed until next month. It will not formally recommend against Georgia joining NATO, but the implication will also be clear. Nobody really believed that NATO would ever fight World War Three to save Georgia, even it were the innocent victim of Russian aggression, but by attacking Russia, Saakashvili got everybody off the hook.

Retired British army colonel Christopher Langton, senior fellow for conflict and defence diplomacy at the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London, summed it up only weeks after the war. "Georgia's dream is shattered, but the country can only blame itself for that."

Gwynne Dyer’s latest book, Climate Wars, was published recently in Canada by Random House.

Post a Comment

Comments

Peter Fro
Rating: Loading...
Thanks for the balance look at the events. Just to clarify, Georgia attacked South Ossetia, not Russia directly, but you are absolutely right - it was the little guy who was the agressor here. Why the U,S, media keeps insisting on the reverse sequence of events and keeps glossing over Saakashvili's criminal decision to shell civilians is unclear. Or, rather, it's clear that the U.S. decided to support Georgia if not militarily than at least in its propaganda war.
 
gk
Rating: Loading...
Mr. Smith, you are an idiot. Georgia did not attack Russia, South Ossetia is/was Georgian territory.
 
Wtf?
Rating: Loading...
The author is either KGB agent or an idiot
 
ObserverfromEU
Rating: Loading...
Firstly, thanks for the interesting article. The issue of Russia's relations with the West is complex, and in my opinion both sides have something to answer for. In view of Russia feeling that the ex-Soviet space should be its backyard, and Russia's general insecurity about its borders (remember Russia was invaded by Germany in 1914 and 1941 and the West sent troops there during the Russian Civil War), I believe NATO should not actively pursue reaching into the Caucasus at least. However, the notion that any area is a country's backyard is immoral I believe, and Russia's order-like statements towards Ukraine and Georgia not to join NATO must be examined with the fact that sovereign states have the right to decide their own future. Plus, ordering adds to the building impression in the West that Russia is becoming more imperialistic, which ironically may add to calls for Georgia and Ukraine to join. Also, with Russia increasingly an authoritarian state, I'm at pains to give Russia's case moral equivalence with the West's. To sum up, I say to the West be wary. To Russia, calm down.

 
Travis Lupick
Rating: Loading...
This article was written by Gwynne Dyer. For a short period of time, the article's byline read "Charlie Smith". This was an error has since been corrected.
 
GH
Rating: Loading...
This artilcle is just as foolish as the russian's, I am very happy I have my boots on...
 
Shame on you
Rating: Loading...
How much KGB pays for this kind of propaganda?
 
Astro
Rating: Loading...
Is this a article a joke?
 
Freedom Fighter
Rating: Loading...
The world will thank Russia one day for preventing what would have become yet another genocide in the 21st century. In the global fight for energy and hegemony, the U.S. and the EU seem to have forgotten the lessons of the past. If the G. W. Bush were the president of Russia, Georgia would be by now a place like Iraq or Afghanistan, and M. Sahakashvili would have shared the fate of Sadam Husein.
 
soldier
Rating: Loading...
"I'm at pains to give Russia's case moral equivalence with the West's" - - - - - - - - that's it! That's the quintessence of the hypocracy of the West. Who do you think you are, "observers" from EU to give or not to give MORAL EQUIVALENCE to Russia? Supermen? Gods? or maybe you're just corrupted parasites sucking the blood from the veins of so called 3rd World? You know nothing about Russia, you know nothing about the great russian people and the way of their lives. You tried during centuries to conquer their land and always failed. So that was, is and will be, stupid. Leave the Russia alone for your own good.
 
Peter Vy
Rating: Loading...
Very brave, Gwynne. Maybe a bit too straight, though. Doesn't look like your readers are ready for the whole truth after a year of mainstream media propaganda.
On the other hand, this isn't even the whole truth yet, is it? As you pointed at the beginning of the article:"Surely, Georgian president Mikheil Saakashvili wouldn’t do something so utterly stupid." It surely looks like he's been given "an offer he couldn't refuse". The role of Bush administration in this incident awaits its researchers.
 
AntiPUKIN
Rating: Loading...
Are you out of youF*ing mind Gwynne??

Hose Russian "peacekeepers" where sacrfised by Kremlin when they directly ordered them to shoot Georgian police.

The reason why Georgian artillery had to shell one building is because an S.Ossetian mercenary post from where they where correcting Art.Fire on Georgian villages was on the roof of the "Russian peacekeeping" command. (This is verified from numerous RUSSIAN courses.)

The Georgian president DID say that he started restoring Territorial integrity and HE HAD a full right to do so as a head of a sovern state. The ONLY reason why he had to act militarily was because RUSSIAN ARMY WAS THERE FOR WEEKS AND HE DID TELL THIS TO MANY WESTERN LEADERS AND THEY DID NOT LISTEN.

PUTIN AND LAVROV HAVE SAID MANY MANY TIMES THAT "Kosovo" would set a precedent and this whole war was a case when an aggressor Russia tried to mask it's invasion as a humanitarian action.(As majority of aggressions have been masked in the past)


Well the basic outline is in this great article by a top Russian military analyst Pavel Felgenhauer:

http://www.robertamsterdam.com/2008/08/pavel_felgenhauer_on_russias_p.ht...



Let me just remind you the facts


Russia:

As soon as Mr.Putin became the president of Russian federation Russia gave away it's passports in the Georgian regions of Abkhazia and "Samachablo" region (South Ossetia), thus creating "Russian citizens" Sure it was completely unlawful and this action could not have met any international civilised norms.

I will not even list all the provocations that Russian special services were committing in Georgia... like the Bombing of financial police regional HQ in Gori. Or like the spy scandal between Georgia and Russia, during which Russian "GRU" officers were arrested in Georgia and later on handed over by Red Cross to Russia.

There were numerous such cases and it's useless to go listing them all now...

*In July 2007 Russia announced a withdrawal from the Conventional Forces in Europe Treaty, limiting military forces in Europe and the Caucasus.

Putin has stated that the recognition of the Kosovo's independence would be followed by serious asymmetric measures including military. (Despite the obvious complete difference in the Georgian conflicts: read the "ETHNIC CLEANSING" section.)

To the stated above the Putin's statement over "Polish missile defence systems" that US was planning to put in that country has added fuel with Putin stating yet again that "asymmetric actions including military" would be taken as a response.

In April NATO has refused to grant MAP (Membership Action Plan) to Ukraine and Georgia and stated that the "Both Ukraine and Georgia will become members one day and that the issue of "MAP" would have been revisited in December 2008."

This basically meant that Russia had to do something before December or Georgia could get MAP a last step before actual membership in the NATO bloc. Well it did... something horrible.

Among the last actions done by Putin as a president(but not a ruler) of Russia was lifting sanctions on Georgia's sepparatists and establishing direct govermental links with them. Thus breaking the agreements of the CIS.
 
AntiPUKIN
Rating: Loading...
• Russia was long in preparation of this assault as many provocations including Bombing Georgia villages by Russian planes (Tsitelubani incident) and downing the Georgian drone over Abkhazian autonomy.

• AntiGeorgian sentiment and war propaganda in Russian media reached new heights just prior Russian invasion.

•In May 2008, Russian paratroopers were sent to reinforce the “peacekeepers” in Abkhazia, violating all agreements.

(Few weeks before Russian invasion, it was vividly portrayed in the Russian media)

• Russian railway military has entered to Abkhazia to fix the railway paths… Russia claimed “humanitarian” reasons, but a week after they finished their reparation and pulled out from Abkhazia Russian tanks started to movie by that military railroad and a war has begun.

• Just few days before Russian invasion, Russia’s 58th army held its large scale military exercises. “Caucasus 2008 – Peace enforcement” every soldier had a propaganda paper with “How Russia Would Enforce Peace To Georgia” – This was before any war.

This was in few km from the Georgian border, just outside the "Roki" tunnel.

• Russia started evacuating majority of civilians from Tskinvali region(South Ossetia) three weeks prior Russian invasion, this was campaigned in the Russian media as all the above too.

• Russian minister of foreign affairs Lavrov told Con. Rice in the private conversation that “Saakashvili must go” and the rhetoric in the UN only added up to the Russian planned aggression to try to simulate “Serbia’s split” conditions for it’s news audience, only the situation was and is quite the opposite… It’s the Georgians who were displaced from Abkhazia and South Ossetia not anyone else.

• Georgian web sited were under cyber attack starting from a week before Russian invasion and war.

• Russian military airplanes numerously violated Georgian airspace, including a day before Condolisa Rice arrival to Tbilisi… about -7-8 days before Russian invasion. But unlike in all such violations in the past this was the fist time Russian side has admitted that it was Russim airplanes, usually they were stating that it was all "Georgian paranoia"

The separatist side (Russian FSB and special services) started massive artillery assault of Georgian village "TAMARASHENI" to the north from Tskinvali. All the Georgian attempts to contact Russian side failed. Marat Kulahmetov the Russian "peacekeepers" general has stated that the "separatists have gone crazy and do not listen to anyone"

After four hours of continues shelling of Georgian villages Tamarasheni and Ergneti Georgian president ordered defence minister to send a small number of troops to Tskinvali to stop the shelling of Georgian population. Later as Russian Tanks started to move more Georgian forces had to enter the conflict zone.

About 40 minutes after that Putin has stated over 2000 dead(That was proved to be completley wrong by HRW, later) and invaded Georgia from a "Roki" tunnel where all this time Russian 58th army was waiting for it's time.

Later the number of dead have been proved false by Human Rights Watch group (at the spot) and concluded that this was a mere excuse for the invasion of the sovereign country.


Georgia:

• Georgia was largely unprepared for the Russian attack, 2000 elite troops (out of total 27.000) soldiers were in Iraq, who were called back after Russian invasion has begun.
 
russian
Rating: Loading...
It is interesting... You are one of several authors, who dont blame only Russia. Here I see a good article without any rusophobe mindset. In any case in view of the Western countries Russia always is bad. If our soldiers didnt protect peacemakers and ossetians, the most of your people would say: russians are weak etc etc etc.
Inspite of everything for us exist one important thing "Victory or die!". So all russophobes may only dream about submit of russians.
 
AntiPUKIN
Rating: Loading...
Not to mention that if Georgia considered attack on Tskinvali the winter would have been the best timing for that as the snow makes the passage to “Roki” tunnel impassable for heavy Russian armor. At the same time for Russia the August would have been the best time for a quick war with Georgia and it’s clear that Putin expected that Georgian government and president would flee the country as the Russians would appoint someone from their circle, some ethnic Georgian maybe. The same that happened during Russian invasion of Democratic Republic Of Georgia in 1921.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Republic_of_Georgia

Also during August the majority of world’s leaders and officials are on holidays not to mention the Olympics that would ideally cover the news of Russian Blitzkrieg. It would have to be finished, before the news would even break out.

Russian journalist Ulia Latinia also has some interesting words about this conflict here:

http://georgiandaily.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6550&... (This interview is in Russian)

As does the Georgian president on the events that have led to this conflict:

http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=19282

JUST LOOK AT THE MAP, ONCE:

As I can clearly see, because of the constant information propaganda in Russian news sources many Russians believe that Georgia has invaded Russia and I have heard thought that Georgia wanted to conquer Russian territory… Very foolish, but it’s what you get when you trust all your media to KGB.

The tunnel that was built between Russia and Georgia, “Roki” tunnel is the ONLY physical border that was built in late 1980s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Georgia_high_detail_map.png

ETHNIC CLEANSING: (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Who is a war criminal:

Before 1993 – over 85% of the population in Abkhazia were ethnic Georgians!

Before 1994 – over 92% of population in South Ossetia were ethnic Georgians!

After brutal ethnic cleansing by Russian military, Chechens (including Shamil Basaev), north Caucasian criminals and Cossacks the population

Has be reduced to 4% and 35% respectively.

After last August 2008 Russian invasion the ethnic Georgian population has been reduced to 0% in both Georgian regions.

This my friends is called ethnic cleansing and it’s a horrible crime!

WHAT HAPPENDED DURING THE LAST RUSSIAN INVASION--->

HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH REPORT:

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/28/georgi19712.htm (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

RUSSIA’S “REASON” FOR INVASION:

Just before the Russian invasion kicked into an active phase Putin claimed 2000 civilian deaths. This was proved very suspiciously exaggerated by the Human Rights Watch group that has been to Tskinvali. Later Russia and HRW confirmed only 44 deaths in the Tskinvali. You may think, but 44 deaths is still too high and I agree, BUT Russia was shelling Tskinvali for two days and bombing it using heavy artillery and aviation, until Georgian troops were ordered to pull out by Georgian government.
 
AntiPUKIN
Rating: Loading...
DESTRUCTION:

As for the destruction here is the satellite image of the destruction after war:

PLEASE NOTE THAT ERGNETI AND TAMARASHENI WERE MOSTLY GEORGIAN POPULATED VILLAGES, that have been razed to the ground by Russian forces.

http://georgiandaily.com/repository/UNOSAT-%20GEO%20-%20Tskhinvali-Damag...

Today the Russian military was destroying any left Georgian civil houses in the aria. “Russian Peacemaking” in progress.

The destruction by Russian military of civil infrastructure and national parks and forests are completely ununderstandable:

On 15 August 2008, Russian helicopters were observed flying low over the Borjomi-Tsemi forest dropping incendiary devices. In the prevailing dry conditions, forest fires rapidly spread. These images, collected by UNOSAT, show the extent of the fires, the area burnt, and the resulting smoke plume. http://georgiandaily.com/repository/Borjomi%20-%20intentionally%20set%20...

Russia has used the cluster bombs (that are banned in the most country's of the world) that have caused death for civilians. http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/14/georgi19625.htm

This all not to mention all the destruction and death that was cause but Russian invasion in Gori, Senaki, Zugdidi, Tskinvali, Poti and many small villages in Georgia.

HISTORY:

History is a complex thing, especially anywhere close to Russia; Russia has quite big record of distortion of historical facts and propaganda that changed the understanding and views on the past.

So the basic thing we should start with is that there NEVER was “North” nor “South” Ossetia’s. Only republic “Alaniya” on the territory of North Ossetia. Russia renamed the republic “Alaniya” into North Ossetia. South Ossetia(In Georgian “Shida Kartli” – “Inner Georgia”) got it’s ONLY border with Russia as soon as Shevardnadze constructed a “Roki” tunnel that connected Russia with (South Ossetia)Georgia.(Huge mistake!)

RUSSIAN MEDIA:

Is an complete oxymoron, no fact’s ONLY propaganda that is endorsed by Kremlin.

In the Reporters without borders world index Russia scores among the lowest in the world and there are very serious reasons for that. The complete lack of free media and total control of the media by Kremlin.

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=24025

As the Gross media propaganda war during this invasion:

http://www.mediachannel.org/wordpress/2008/08/11/conflict-opens-front-in...

Not to mention that Russia just did not show anything about bombardments of civil targets in Georgia and many sights in Gori, Poti or Senaki were shown as Tskinvali and sign’s of “Georgian aggression”.
 
AntiPUKIN
Rating: Loading...
RUSSIAN ARMY AND A REASON FOR A NATIONAL PRIDE:

While most of Russians got their share of pride for “liberating peacekeepers and the population” as was given in the Russian media.

The truth is the contrary, Russian solders and Chechen mercenaries and North Caucasian bandits and criminals were looting EVERYTHING from the population with Georgian passports. (Many ethnic Ossetians and Russians with Georgian passports got robbed too)

When Russians solders occupied one of the Georgian bases they made a cell phone video in which they stated that they “live like complete bums compared to Georgian soldiers” They stole worn army boots and uniforms and even took used TOILET’S… (I saw this on TV myself… funny thought)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dCARseF7yc (That is one of my favourites)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VokvfoggJAQ&feature=related

and many many more cases… still proud? Maybe…

Russian embassy in Tbilisi was sunk in the “gifts” from Georgian people… used old toilets and other rubbish that Russians solders were stealing…

http://russia-georgia.blogspot.com/2008/08/toilet-robbers.html

MDEVEDEV POSING, SIMLING:

While Medvedev was posing and smiling, Russians soldiers were looting and killing civilians, and razing Georgian villages to the ground, inside INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNISED TERRITORY OF GEORGIA. ALL OF THE UN RESOLUTIONS HAVE CALLED FOR RESPECT OF GEORGIANT TERITORIAL INTERGIRTY.

In fact there are up to four times MORE OSSETIANS living in other parts of Georgia, other than “South Ossetia” including in Borjomi region and Kaheti region… so why noone hates them there? Why many Ossetians still live in Tbilisi?? Because that has NOTHINHG to do with them, it’s all Kremlin and sick imperialistic nature of the Putins Russian regime.

I understand it is impossible to wake ordinary Russians, you look at your glorious news media of “liberation” and feel undeservedly proud.

The choice is easy it’s much more comforting to be proud than ashamed. I understand that you want to believe in good and you are told that all this is done for a noble cause, sure this is a simple lie of people you gave and trusted EVERYTHING you have. Your media, civil society freedoms and all the rest of your country. You are a herd of people that are being told by the government and you have no other choice but to believe. A very dangerous path for your nations future. Georgia is a small country, only 3,5 million people… next time your risks will be significantly higher and yes the world will still keep buying your oil, but your only “real” friends will be Hugo Chávez and the president of Syria… good luck with them.
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-65820

Mr. Dyer, in the end all I can suggest is if you speak Russian (Which I HIGHLY HIGHLY DOUBT, given your insanely idiotic and STUPID baseless "article") to READ THIS ->

IT IS AN INTERVIEW BY A FORMER PUTIN'S ECONOMIC ADVISER AND HE HAS DONE A GREAT RESEARCH ABOUT THIS WAR AND GIVES A TIME LINE OF THE THINGS THAT HAVE BROUGHT RUSSIAN TO IT'S INVASION. AS FOR THE REST, GUYS THINGS ARE MORE COMPLEX, IT HAS A BACK STORY, IT IS NOT SO SIMPLE. DO YOUR HOMEWORK AFTER YOU JUMP INTO CONCLUSIONS!

http://www.echo.msk.ru/programs/figure/600923-echo/

The countries that have recognized Kosovo, blocked Georgia's NATO path in Bucharest in April 2008 and did not tried to engage Putin when Georgian government was begging for it are directly responsible for this invasion and the suffering of Georgian and Ossetian people.

Don't look like Shroeder!
 
soldier
Rating: Loading...
"I'm at pains to give Russia's case moral equivalence with the West's" - - - - - - - - that's it! That's the quintessence of the hypocracy of the West. Who do you think you are, "observers" from EU to give or not to give MORAL EQUIVALENCE to Russia? Supermen? Gods? or maybe you're just corrupted parasites sucking the blood from the veins of so called 3rd World? You know nothing about Russia, you know nothing about the great russian people and the way of their lives. You tried during centuries to conquer their land and always failed. So that was, is and will be, stupid. Leave the Russia alone for your own good.
 
AntiPUKIN
Rating: Loading...
This stupid "article" was translated into Russian...

http://www.inosmi.ru/translation/251243.html

Now this place is flooded with the KGB F@kd people...

P.S.

To Author,

1) You are a complete idiot

2) You hate US, this is a great way to say something bad about US.

3) KGB have payed you 5000 or maybe a little less or more for this stupid and crazy peace of exquisite propaganda.
 
Lamer
Rating: Loading...
Good artilcle. At least western media tell the truth.
Many russian soldiers died when georgian begin their bombardment of sleeping town, protected by russian garrison. Russian reaction has been relatively soft.
Saakashvili - war criminal, he promise peace to Ossetian people, but in same time georgian troop already moving toward Tskhinvali.
7aug georgians speak about "restoration of constitutional order", and no one word about russian 'invasion'. Only when Russia strike back (almost 20 hours later) - then georgian lie machine has been started.
Sorry for bad English.
 
AntiMoron
Rating: Loading...
DOES EVEN ANYBODY REALISE THAT "SOUTH OSSETIA" is a name Bolsheviks came up with after occupation of Georgia in 1921?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_invasion_of_Georgia

They RENAMED a historicly an geographically And ethnically Georgian territory of "Shida kartli" to "South Ossetia" and did the same thing in the Northen caucasus republic of "Alaniya" and RENAMED it to "NORTH OSSETIA"

Georgia DID not invade anybody, Russia did. Learn a bit before you start yabbing...
 
Otus
Rating: Loading...
To Peter Fro:

The author is right, Georgia attacked both S. Ossetia and Russia. The latter one was attacked because its UN mandated peacekeepers were suddenly attacked (and many of them murdered or wounded) by Georgians. The peacekeepers fought for over 2 days against the enemy which greatly outnumbered them in quantity an firepower (according to the mandate they had only light arms and a few lightly armored vehicles – and were attacked with the tanks and heavy artillery) until they were rescued by the Russian troops. If this was not an aggression against Russia I do not know what would be an aggression.
 
James
Rating: Loading...
God damn it... learn what are you typing about first Gwynne...

http://www.amazon.com/Guns-August-2008-Russias-Georgia/dp/0765625083

read it... (it has more Russian authors than Georgians and gives a very detailed time line of events) Things are MUCH more complicated...
 
Martin
Rating: Loading...
It was Georgia STARTED the war, this is very clear.

Below is what Civil Georgia reported in 8 August in its entirety.
http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=18955&search=control%20ossetia


“President Saakashvili said he had announced a general mobilization of reserve troops amid “large-scale military aggression” by Russia.

In a live televised address on August 8, Saakashvili said Georgian government troops had gone “on the offensive” after South Ossetian militias responded to his peace initiative on August 7 by shelling Georgian villages.

As a result, he said, Georgian forces now controlled “most of South Ossetia.”

He said the breakaway region’s districts of Znauri, Tsinagari, as well as the villages of Dmenisi, Gromi, and Khetagurovo, were “already liberated” by Georgian forces.

“A large part of Tskhinvali is now liberated and fighting is ongoing in the center of Tskhinvali,” he added.

He also said that Georgia had come under aerial attack from Russian warplanes on August 8, which was an obvious sign of “large-scale military aggression” against Georgia.

The Georgian Ministry of Internal Affairs said that three SU-24 Fencer attack aircraft had breeched Georgian airspace on August 8, and one of them had dropped two bombs close to a police station in Kareli, slightly injuring several people.

“Immediately stop the bombing of Georgian towns,” Saakashvili told Russia. “Georgia did not start this confrontation and Georgia will not give up its territories; Georgia will not say no to its freedom… We have already mobilized tens of thousands of reserve troops. Mobilization is ongoing.”

“Hundreds of thousands of Georgians should stand together and save Georgia,” he added.


Note there is no mention of Russian forces in the Roki Tunnel: he gives quite different reasons.


Saakashvili’s story has changed: see Patrick Armstrong's piece (with Georgian sources) on JRL/2009/
(http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/2008-170-21.cfm) documenting these changes. The “Russians are already in the Roki Tunnel” excuse – of which Saakashvili put forth two variations) only appeared after the operation went so badly wrong.


And BTW – here’s the Civil Georgia report of the Kurashvili statement from 8 Aug (http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=18941&search=). So, if it's a "fabrication", it's not a recent one.


A senior official from the Georgian Ministry of Defense said Georgia had “decided to restore constitutional order in the entire region” of South Ossetia. Mamuka Kurashvili, an MoD official in charge of overseeing peacekeeping operations, told journalists late on August 7 that the South Ossetian side had rejected Tbilisi’s earlier decision to unilaterally cease fire and had resumed shelling of Georgian villages in the conflict zone.
 
Vadim
Rating: Loading...
Georgia attacked Russia??? Can anyone be as naïve as that? Not a single Georgian solder crossed Russian-Georgian border or fired a short across it. Just the other way around. The Russians invaded Georgia with a huge force. Can the author, please, refer to any independent confirmation of Georgia attacking the Russians before the Russian invasion? Or is he taking former KGB spy’s words as “honest”? Jumping on conclusions based on the “leakages” that often are originated by the same spies is highly irresponsible.

How can the Georgians be “aggressors” within their own internationally recognized territory? How can anyone be? Were the Russians aggressors when they flattened Chechnya (over 100 000 killed, mostly civilians, in the same region, just a few years ago)? Or why nobody is worried about Turkey (NATO member) pounding Kurdistan? Thousands killed. Is this an aggression? Or not?

Killing 100 separatists in Ossetia is called “genocide” and “aggression” and when the Russians kill 100 000 Chechens it is called antiterrorist operation? What’s going on in this World!!!

Nonsense. The international community cannot do anything about the RUSSIAN AGGRESSION and to cover up its helplessness it tries to hang all sh…t on little Georgia. What a shame!!!
 
skiller
Rating: Loading...
oh... it's true story, really.
 
Abkhaz
Rating: Loading...
If not Russia majority of Ossetian and probably Abkhaz people would be dead by now or driven away from their homeland and that would be the best solution for the "free" and "democratic" “civilized” world. Georgian army on the way to Ossetian capital attacked Russian peacekeeping base and killed 94 Russian peacekeepers that were there under International UN mandate. Is this only fact not enough for the normal State to retaliate? Apart form little things like defending it’s citizens lives and stability in the region. What would have happened to Serbia if it's presided would have given an order to attack American Base in Kosovo?

You fo..ls that have no clue of what is going on in the world, no brains to look for alternative sources of information, brainwashed by "free mass media" propaganda.

 
From Russia
Rating: Loading...
Dear Gwynne Dyer thank you!
You seems to be the first author who gave true facts on the Georgia's invasion. Your article is the best cure for anti-western sentiments in Russia or hatred towards the West.
Please see other comments of the Russian readers here http://forum.inosmi.ru/showthread.php?t=54824

 
Denis
Rating: Loading...
What you will do if someone starts a bomb peacefully sleeping citizens of Canada?
What do you do when your soldiers serving UN peacekeeping operations and armed only with machine guns, will be under constant bombardment from tanks and guns?
Think about the answers to these questions and all will be clear.
Any self-respecting country will not give any to kill its citizens.
 
Marinaro
Rating: Loading...
It is a little surprising to see an honest outlook on what happened in South Ossetia a year ago. Bravo, Ms Dyer!

It is not surprising at all to see how many scum jacals obviously from FSU territories use the Internent to spit around in their poor English. No brain, no education, no consiousness...
 
Ruslan
Rating: Loading...
you are an idiot,Russia attacked Georgia !!!!!
 
Askel
Rating: Loading...
Thank you for your independent view on these tragical events! It has become too common to blame Russia for everything just because Russians "are evil". No one in the West even questions the reports and "analytics" they get fed with by "independent" democratic media. It looks like the history is about to turn around and to close yet another cycle but this time history repeats itself upside down: it's now US that supports corrupt puppet governments that wold kill thousands of their citizens just to make Uncle Sam happy. It's now US that sells weapon to those governments and peforms military trainings days before those crazy puppets start firing US-made guns at civilians who are guilty of striving for Freedom. It's now US that launches massive Pravda-style propaganda that makes people think white is black and black is white! It is now US that dumped the very ideals of Freedom!

Even in the hottest days of the cold war the USSR and USA managed to avoid any direct confrontation. This was the first war between USA and Russia and it wasn't started by Russia.
 
danich
Rating: Loading...
Gwynne Dyer, good article. Thanks from Russia.

p.s. Americans, we are not aggressive, uncivilized savages, believe me. We don't need bloodshed and war.
 
REALIST
Rating: Loading...
I can't understand how Georgia could attack Russia on it's own sovereign territory?
I suppose this article is payed by Russia!!!
 
Totalman
Rating: Loading...
This is classical soviet Propaganda, which was utilized in the end of 20th century. Complete article is lie.
 
Igor, Toronto
Rating: Loading...
Thank you, Gwynne, I've started reading Canadian press again due to obviously more weighted and less biased approach regarding events around Georgia and Ukraine in Canadian press this year. And you one of the authors who keep people rather informed than bombarded with propaganda.
Thanks to you some misinformed people found out what was the main reasons for Russia to "invade" Georgia. Yes, there were more grounds and more human incentives apart from geopolitics than US had invading Iraq.

As for the readers and some public who still consider Russia an aggressor I have to say that
Isaakashvili will be hanging on a tree by his balls by the end of this year as Mr. Putin promised, unless Isaakashvili resigns this summer by goodwill.
 
Russian
Rating: Loading...
USA has an independent press? Improbably, but there can be it.
 
Mr. SIr
Rating: Loading...
This is the worst new article I have ever read, and I've read the Washington Post, that's hard to beat.
First of all, Georgia didn't declare war on Russia. They declared war on South Ossetia because they violated the peace treaty by launching mortars with illegal artillery pieces into ethnic Georgia villages. They've been doing this for a long time because they know Georgia isn't going to keep taking it. They wanted Georgia to declare war so that Russia could step in and claim to be the hero. South Ossetia is just a puppet in Russia's big show.
Secondly, you're worried about the Russian peacekeeping troops? Did you know that they are part of Russia's most experienced military division, are equipped with the best warfare technology Russia can buy, and are trained to fight, not to negotiate. Those aren't peacekeeping troops, they're hard-core Russian marines. By the way, what's with that sentence in the article, "and dozens of Russian troops were killed or injured." What'd you want to happen to them? Get free hugs and cookies. There's a reason they're called soldiers.
And what about the number of Georgian civilians killed in Gori and Russia bombed the crap out of it? Don't you care about how high that number got and how unnecessary that continual bombing run was?
Finally, when you decide to take sides in this issue, please, look back at the history of how this all started. Don't just say, "oh its Georgia's fault because Gwynne Dyer told me so." Look it up yourself and decide for yourself. Get a book, wikipedia it, doesn't matter. Just don't listen to the first thing you hear or read. Georgia's history is very interesting concerning this issue. I agree that Georgia is partially to blame, but this is an issue WITHIN Georgia, that shouldn't include noisy visitors like Russia, just because they're still politically stuck in 1989 and miss the iron curtain. Just research this stuff before you decide your opinion, please, and look up stuff in the past, not just since August 2008. And finally, that beginning statement, "It was like Jamaica attacking the United States." that's not correct at all. It was more like South Korea attacking North Korea in retaliation for launching missiles at them and then China coming in and destroying the South. That's a more accurate demonstration.
Thank you all for your time and I hope this all gets resolved in a peaceful and more mature way next time, which I'm afraid it won't, unfortunately...
 
a-aleksandr
Rating: Loading...
I from Russia, live on in the North Caucasus.
I apologise for bad English (I use on-lain the translator).
Given article have translated and have laid out on one popular resource at us in Russia, therefore I have glanced here.
It was interesting that will be written in comments.
I wish to tell some words as the person which lives in that region.

There is such dirty word of "politician".
Simply two political groups in the different countries have decided to arrange small victorious wars, it is clear that if Georgia has returned South Ossetia Saakashvili's rating would fly up to heavens under the control.
But left so that the same in approach of crisis the rating has not prevented Medvedev and Putin.
Therefore they coolly observed, how Misha has put a head in a mousetrap.
Actually all region, on either side of from border for three knew day that there will be a war, is too strong itself in a breast Georgians beat and federal politicians were too optimistical.

Our region has endured many wars, I am am amazed with the relation to it in the West though and at us in Russia in the central regions the same people have rather vague idea about these wars.
After all it is absolutely not difficult to understand in my opinion that wars and a genocide went for the sake of the power and money and only for the sake of them.
I once again will repeat: for the sake of the power and for the sake of money!!!
Not because of what that of an imperial politics or democracy or still because of what that of nonsense!
Only the power and only money!!! And only for a small group of persons!!!
That who in detail studies these conflicts, instead of on the TV, will agree with me.

Yours faithfully, Alexander

P.S. I hope the translator will adequately translate the text, I tried to use the most simple expressions.
 
Other side's view
Rating: Loading...
http://www.war080808.com/

Just see and think yourself.
 
Shame on you too
Rating: Loading...
"How much KGB pays for this kind of propaganda?"

How much CIA pays for _your_ kind of propaganda? :)
Do you _realy_ think that any different opinion is paid?
 
I Russian - mean I necessarily agent KGB
Rating: Loading...
The American!
And who has intruded sovereign Iraq?
Afghanistan?
Serbia?
Democracy? Freedom?
No!
Thirst of a profit!!!
Turn from Russia and look at the criminals!!!
And to cook a soup from cabbage learn(teach) the wife!
Yes?
From Russia about love!
 
soldier
Rating: Loading...
If you say or write some good words about Russia you are KGB-payed (FSB maybe?) scum. Quite democratic point of view, isn't it?
And you may be real psycho and cocaine junkie as Saakashvili but entire power like USA will defend you - just because you barks at the Putin...

Hey, "democratic world", what has become of you? Or it always was this way, huh? You realy think that people from Russia and Ukraine stupid and you can feed us with such rotten food as your so called "democracy"?
Western powers killed and kills thousand people everyday - Iraq, f.Yugoslavia, Aphganistan etc. - but when Russia stands and fight for its people you unleash your stinky dogs of propaganda...

You will be (or maybe are?) punished for this by the way of history. Remember that.
 
Audrius
Rating: Loading...
Stop lies!!! Georgia _never_ attacked Russia. It just wanted to expel russians occupational army from their country and gain control over their own country.
And, Martin, really, _stop_ lies! Russian started this war back in the 1991-1990 years. That _is_ a fact.
 
rob
Rating: Loading...
AntiPUKIN, man, you sure know how to waffle on... You obviously have more time than brains. Time to shut up now.
 
American
Rating: Loading...
I have written my state senator, requesting that rather than donating my tax dollars to Saakashvili, we send him a planeload of WD-40, since his propaganda machine is fast coming to a grinding halt.
 
Alan Arthur
Rating: Loading...
This is a clear and reasoned commentary, but I cannot resist noting that Turkey, which has long been a NATO member is also "to the south of Russia, not between it and Western Europe." If it can belong, their location can be no bar to membership for the Ukraine and Georgia.
 
Alex B
Rating: Loading...
It is now pretty clear to me that that was a huge propaganda attack in a huge propaganda war against Russia. The question that is not that clear to me is what does West need that war for. All those one-sided visions of everything related to Russia (remember Chechnya, polonium case, "gas war" with Ukraine, internal affairs always treated as constant motion to totalitarian state etc. etc.) - why is all that. I mean Russia is far from perfect, there's a whole lot of problems (corruption being the worst one imho), but generally Russia is no worse than average country in the world.
So why does the western propaganda machine burst when it comes about Russia?
Well, I think here we have the same thing that happens all the way since the first human tribe appeared in this world. To keep your tribe together and controllable you need a good goal, or, which is even better, you need a good enemy. If there is no real one, you need to invent one.
There was one for most of the 20th century - the USSR. And I'd say that was rather real enemy than the imagined one. Then the USSR has fallen and for a few years there was no enemy. I did not monitor what happened in western perception of the state of the things during that time, but I suggest that some of the top guys have decided that it's no good when you don't have an enemy the people would believe in (maybe it's harder to justify hundreds of billions spent on the weapons and stuff like that, I don't know). So, my assumption is that at some point somebody has decided to invent an enemy.
Who would be the best candidate?
N.Korea? No, it's too tiny.
Iraq? Well, not too global either. And "democratized" already
Maybe China? Hmmm. There are too many economical interdependencies. This could be not as profitable as desired.
Russia! That's it! The biggest country in the world (easy to convince everyone of its power; although China is like 10 Russias in terms of population). Its history is full of wars (easy to convince people of its aggressiveness, no matter how just the wars were). It's been the enemy just a few years ago (so we can reuse the skills gained during the cold war, and this fits well into the stereotypes that already exist, forget about the difference between commies and russians, just declare that the russians are returning back to the communism). And... russians are white, so this is very politically correct to blame russians for everything and you will not be accused of racism :) (imagine that amount of negative reports and analysis in the media about, say, black or chinese people - they would sooner or later just say in reply: "You hate us because we are black" :).
There are some minor advantages of russians being a good candidate, e.g. russians are very self critical people, and when they are blamed of something their first reaction would be "well, maybe they are right and we are really doing the wrong things...". This is changing now, especially after the 888 when Russia did everything nearly perfectly, and still it was devilized in the western perception, so the russians now think "Why the hell would we care about what the west says? They always say the same things no matter what we do. So let's just do what we think is right for us and f... them all"

What's the problem with all that? Well, I think that sooner or later the west can become the victim of its own propaganda like the USSR did. The further your thoughts are from the reality the worse are the chances to be successful. Remember that freedom of speech is one of the most important bases of the modern democracies not only because it is fun to say whatever you wish, but because it increases your chances to make right decisions.
Think about it.

P.S. And yes, I am Russian and a KGB agent. I was paid 50 rubles for this text, so I can have my daily bottle of vodka :)
 
Kim Ir Sen
Rating: Loading...
White people from Canada and USA, stop blaming Russia for what it didn't do. Look at the own countries. What did you do with native people?
 
a-aleksandr
Rating: Loading...
2 Mr. SIr
Your words are good and logical. However in them there is a number of discrepancies which can call into question all chain of reasonings.
Russian armies and South Ossetia were in Abkhazia about three foreign agreement between Ossetins, Georgia and Russia-as the guarantor of observance of the peace treaty, in particular in South Ossetia three battalions - Russian have been created, Georgian and local Osset and there was an incorporated staff supervising actions of these battalions.
Presence there 3 battalions of peacemakers should serve as the guarantor of that there will be a peace way of the resolution of conflict.
Bombardments of frontier territories were in a current of 15 years and there were they from both parties, it moderately possibilities was resisted by peacemakers.
Concerning marines, in Russia the marines in peace-making operations were never used.
Usually peace-making operations in Russia are assigned to airborne troops.
However approximately one year prior to discussed events, peacemakers began to type from among usual motor-marksmen (infantry).
As I wrote above (in other post), I live near to conflict and news area as a rule learn not from the TV, and from participants of events.
Well-known enough that has occurred on August, 8th.
Commanders of the Georgian and Russian peacemakers have met in a staff, had a drink together to tea, have talked about settlement to conditions, were delighted to Saakashvili's words told for some hours before, that wars will not be. Also have parted in an arrangement of battalions.
And less than an hour later, the Georgian peacemakers have opened fire on Russian standing on the next posts.
Russian peacemakers in a conflict zone had only small arms and easy armoured cars. They did not have even grenade cup discharges. And under the Russian charter those had the weapon only who stood on block posts (?????????), change on duty should have the automatic machine and 60 cartridges to it.
Therefore those who stood on block posts were lost almost instantly for with ??-74 to beat off tank attack inconveniently.
And those who were on base, have got under fire fragmentation shells. And Russian base, was simply camp, there were no capital strengthenings and shelters.
And know, what the most evil-smelling in this history? Even not cool murder of peacemakers.
That local residents considered that in territory of Russian camp of the woman and children can take cover for Georgians will not shoot on base of peacemakers. However they were mistaken.
More than days the camp of peacemakers was under heavy fire, 2/3 soldiers have got wounds, the number of the wounded and killed civilians in camp territory is not known.
Notice I do not try to shout what of the parties it is guilty more.
Living at us in region Ossetins and Georgians took out the relatives for 3 days prior to the beginning of war. All all was well-known.
But anybody from politicians not in America, neither in Europe, nor in Russia, not in Georgia has made nothing!!!
All waited for a bloody outcome and have received it.
Blood killed in this war on hands of politicians.
My friends-Georgians, Ossetins and Russian damned those who has arranged this bloodshed.
And words about the international rights, contracts who whom has provoked also other important things which politicians and on the Internet like to discuss, actually are completely not important.
Important another that people would have possibility easy to eat, sleep, work and raise children.
And now in region again raise hatred by a national and religious principle.
And here discuss who whom the first has struck and at whom what lawyers, pr service to whom what special service how many has paid etc.
It is frivolous

Yours faithfully, Alexander

P.S. Once again I apologise for bad English
 
[Comments Disclaimer]

Post a comment

URLs and email addresses will be automatically turned into links.