In December, Canada will participate in a 192-nation conference in Copenhagen to hash out a scheme to replace the 1997 Kyoto Protocol, the failed international accord to reduce carbon dioxide emissions. All of this is being done in an effort to address modern and fashionable eco-guilt. Proponents of the meetings in Copenhagen propose a massive transfer of cash from developed to less-developed nations so we can atone for our supposed climate crimes. UN documents indicate this program will impose a one-time cost of at least US$250 billion. Other reports indicate it could grow to as much as $100 billion per year. Canada’s required contribution would be no less than $3 billion per year.
The Copenhagen scheme will also promote a new international market regime for trading CO2 called “cap and trade”. What it really amounts to, however, is “cap and tax”. This scheme would make an Enron trader smile. It would create an artificial market with an overall government-set cap on CO2 emissions and government-set quotas for an individual company’s emissions. The company would then have to reduce emissions to meet its quota or buy emission credits from a company that had emissions lower than its quota.
The result will either be Canadians paying more for the same products, or Canadian-based companies pulling up stakes and moving to foreign countries that don’t impose these additional taxes. Either way, climate change agreements like Copenhagen mean even more taxes that Canadians can’t afford to pay, destroying more jobs that Canadians can’t afford to lose.
Let’s not forget, we already pay substantial energy taxes in Canada. Thirty-three percent of the cost of a tank of gas is tax!
The realization that reducing human-made CO2 levels means a reduction in the standard of living for ordinary people will awaken Canadian politicians to an electoral hazard should they stay hitched to this global warming bandwagon craze.
Never mind we’ve had no global warming for the past 10 years while CO2 levels have continued to rise.
The Canadian government has said it will wait for the results of the Copenhagen conference and for the U.S. to finalize its climate change policy before announcing what Canadians are in for.
The U.S. will probably not have a climate change policy finalized before the Copenhagen meetings. Some European governments even admit the Copenhagen scheme may not get adopted. Still, they are meeting in Copenhagen to agree to have another meeting some time in the future—all in the effort to appear to be doing something about a globe that hasn’t warmed in a decade from over-heating.
Any effort to impose yet more energy taxes in Canada would redistribute scarce resources from productive to unproductive activities, reduce wages, kill jobs, and leave families shivering in the dark with their budgets running on empty. Prime Minister Harper can show leadership by rejecting Copenhagen’s efforts to drain more jobs and hard-earned tax dollars from Canada.
Kevin Gaudet is the federal director of Canadian Taxpayers Federation.
Maureen Bader is the B.C. director for the federation.
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"Kevin Trenberth: The fact is that we can’t account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can’t. The CERES data published in the August BAMS 09 supplement on 2008 shows there should be even more warming: but the data are surely wrong. Our observing system is inadequate."
"Michael Mann: Perhaps we'll do a simple update to the Yamal post, e.g. linking Keith/s new page--Gavin t? As to the issues of robustness, particularly w.r.t. inclusion of the Yamal series, we actually emphasized that (including the Osborn and Briffa '06 sensitivity test) in our original post! As we all know, this isn't about truth at all, its about plausibly deniable accusations."
ClimateGate - Climate center's server hacked revealing documents and emails
http://www.examiner.com/x-25061-Climate-Change-Examiner~y2009m11d20-Clim...
"Read it. The conclusion looks pretty clear. These people should be put in jail as soon as possible. You know, these are not just small tricks in an academic discussion. These people have acquired millions if not billions of taxpayers' money by methods that seem to be provably fraudulent."
http://motls.blogspot.com/2009/11/hacked-hadley-cru-foi2009-files.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+LuboMotlsReferenceFrame+(Lubos+Motl's+reference+frame)
It is really easy to write down unsubstantiated claims (let me try making up a few claims, similar to their methodology):
A carbon trade program is the simplest way of introducing accountability for energy use and consumption; an important task considering the devastating effects carbon emission has on the environment. Such a program would encourage business to invest into new technologies that would ensure efficiencies in our production methods. A ten percent tax on carbon emission can lead to an equal amount of economic stimulus in the form of job creation in the technology sector of our economy. The net benefit is a healthier environment, the circumvention of run-away climate change, and a stimulus to the technology sector of the Canadian economy.
The cap and trade system provides a rare opportunity for countries like Canada, which can rely on a small tax to its seemingly endless natural resources in order to reinvest in energy efficient technologies. The welcomed stimulus to the economy in the form of new jobs, and the recognition as a world leader in new technologies are worthy outcomes for the small penalty taxing excessive use of carbon resources.
Canada, take the opportunity to become a leader in action towards climate change, so that we may all benefit from a healthier planet and a economy seen as a pioneer in green technologies.
Signed, the majority of taxpayers.
(and Arlo Bundsen)
On only the 99 B-Line route where TransLink is operating diesel buses on the #9 and # 17 trolley bus routes, the 99 B-Line diesel buses emit 5,000 tonnes of CO2 annually. If we had TransLink pay a carbon tax of $1,000/tonne of CO2 for any diesel bus operating on a trolley bus route, maybe we wouldn’t have so many people dying from lung cancer or developing asthma from the asthma and cancer causing diesel bus emissions which the simpletons at TransLink dismiss as the cost of having “sustainable and livable” transit.
Almost all Neocons (Harpo, Gordo, Bader) pay lip service to environmental issues when in reality they do everything in their power to increase Canada's greenhouse gas emissions. They love Tar Sands and Big Oil.
Harpo is trying his damnedest to shut down AECL with his Nuclear Rejection Commission because he knows nuclear power will end Canadian fossil fuel use and set an example to the world on ending Global warming. Perhaps Bader is with Harpo believing in the Tim LaHaye scenario where Global warming hastens the Apocalypse making any effort to reduce greenhouse gases a very bad thing.
Cons like Bader love to enlist the support of Greenies in their election fights, using them to siphon away votes from progressive political parties who might actually do something about global warming. Fresh from Jane Sterk's successful reelection of Gordo, Elizabeth May is plotting to give Harper that environmentally destructive majority government he so desperately needs. Both are proud of the work their American counterpart Ralph Nader did in electing George Bush and scream with delight thinking of the millions of Iraq's he killed, the monumental environmental damage he caused and the depression he bestowed upon us.
Bader is right about one thing - new age “renewable” religious dogma like Green taxes and Cap n' Trade are designed by Big Oil sponsored Greenies to get the way of the solution to Global warming.
The world is starting to realize that nuclear power is the only possible answer to our less than ten years away civilization ending peak oil and climate crisis. With mass production, nuclear power costs drop from the current Asian $1.5 to under $1 billion a gigawatt cheaper than coal and 10% the least cost renewable.
Where western progressive politicians seemed to have joined the Greenies new age “renewable” religious sect, India has plans to do something about global warming with 470 gigawatts of nukes and is dumping beaucoup bucks into nuclear research. China is working the same path.
A worldwide build of 10000 reactors would be paid for by and would end fossil fuel use
In Canada, a $150 billion investment in 150 mass produced AECL nukes, would be paid for by and would end our expenditure of $100 billion annually on fossil fuel - a two year payback.
Similarily the US needs to build 2500 reactors, but is crippled by inefficient private power companies, a biased Nuclear Rejection Commission and corrupt and litigious legal system, quadrupling their nuclear costs and time frames compared to our own.
By rimming the border with AECL reactors Canada's public power companies would make $trillions selling the US nuke power at premium rates, making AECL the world leader in nuclear power, and generating a huge high paying job producing Canadian industry.
The conversion from fossil fuel to nuclear is great economics and with the current recession the industrial capacity is there. It eliminates our air pollution, creates a huge employment boosting domestic and export industry, and makes our economy far more competitive than the “renewable” powered Europe and lately the US. Even the deniers would go for it.
Canadian neocon governments have always chosen the hewers of wood drawers of water route refusing to support Canadian hitech from the Arvo Arrow to Nortel. Lets hope Harpo doesn't dump AECL.
seth
We are in this together, and we need to develop sustainable ecological economic development throughout the world so that all people may reach their potential. not just now but for future generations, is that so hard to understand and except?
Where do you think the money for such an effort would come from? Exactly how much in Canadian dollars are you personally prepared to up your taxes to accomplish this?
You could start a sustainability fund, say $2000 per year from you and like minded associates, and sustainable transit could be built for you from the fund.
The supposed purloined items make interesting reading. I wonder if the shift from 'global warming' to 'climate change' hyperbole has resulted in more supporters, or is there a need to shift to something even less intrusive.
As Prof Ball says:
"These people controlled the global weather data used by the IPCC through the joint Hadley and CRU and produced the HadCRUT data. They controlled the IPCC, especially crucial chapters and especially preparation of the Summary for PolicyMakers (SPM). Stephen Schneider was a prime mover there from the earliest reports to the most influential in 2001. They also had a left wing conduit to the New York Times. The emails between Andy Revkin and the community are very revealing and must place his journalistic integrity in serious jeopardy. Of course the IPCC Reports and especially the SPM Reports are the basis for Kyoto and the Copenhagen Accord, but now we know they are based on completely falsified and manipulated data and science. It is no longer a suspicion. Surely this is the death knell for the CRU, the IPCC, Kyoto and Copenhagen and the Carbon Credits shell game."
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/17102
Those of you who have unwittingly supported a scam must now turn your energy to reversing the harm done and preventing more nonsense about "carbon footprints".
Where would the money come from...how about the 1% of the people who own over 90% of the wealth, in the USA. I wonder if perhaps they should pay their fair share? Do you think this is a fair situation, how do rationalize that? Please do share your critical thoughts.
One percent of the fortunes of entrepreneurs in North America would not build a proper functioning transit infrastructure in the Lower Mainland in perpetuity. What exactly is their "fair share" as compared to yours?
As you sit back in your warm residence, typing on your computer, with hot and cold running water, food in the fridge, clothes in the closet, a job perhaps, family perhaps, it is pretty easy to criticize "others" at every turn. Its also easy and hypocritical to attach blame to the "rich" or the well off. People like Gates have truckloads of assets and like him do philanthropic work all the time.
How about the greed of the tinpot dictators and tribal heads? Probably much more responsible for child deaths than some widget baron in North America. Where does your 1% figure come from? Incomes over 50,000 or 100,000 or 500,000 dollars? Or is that another urban myth?
A new study on The World Distribution of Household Wealth by the Helsinki-based World Institute for Development Economics Research of the United Nations University was launched earlier this week. The study shows the richest 2% of adults in the world own more than half of global household wealth. Check it out before you throw figures about so casually: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/1222-04.htm
The Soviet Union and all other "communist countries" in fact where never communist countries, Karl Marx, himself said he was not a Marxist. Each of those "wannabe communist" countries where and are dictatorships. I am sure you can agree with that. You are not going to tell me China is a communist state are you, which by the way is kicking everybody's collective gluteus maximus, and own how much of the USA debt?
Capitalism is simply the best system the human species has created to produce vast amounts of surplus goods, I think you and I would agree with that? My arguement is not about it's creation, it is the distribution of that wealth that I have issue with. The article you provided only reinforces the point that their is great disparity between nations and people.
In fact your article states, with miniamal details that the existing free trade agreements are unfair, and in fact are allowing the elites to get richer, while the impoverished have to leave their country and find employment elsewhere, in this case the Mexicans going to the USA. To add insult to injury, then the media demonize the Illegal immigrant and do not recognize the unfair trade agreement their elites created.
If you where an intelligent person you want to learn new truths, and perhaps incorporate them into your arguements. Africa is a perfect place to begin, as the USA and Europe have/ continue to built their empires off the backs of the children, women, and men of Africa, through both the slave trade and extraction of raw materials. This continues through the guise of loans from the world bank whereby the strings attached keep the elites on the Continent extracting it's materials with little of the wealth remaining in these countries, thereby the African nations can not develop the necessary infrastructure for schools, hospitals, housing and so forth. This enforced policy prevents the nations from developing stable populations and governments. It seems that the more unstable a government is the easier it is to enslave their people and steal their resources, I would suggest that slavery has reconstituted itself on the Continent of Africa.
I see the patterns that the greed of the capitalism has created and perpetuates, to the enviroment, governments, and peoples, probably because I look at the historical process and see how the the goals of it are redesigned under the term "self-government"
Visigoth, I know you are not one of elites( otherwise you would not be on here) why you defend them...now thats a good question? Perhaps you aspire to be one of them? Your dream perhaps, well again if you look at the patterns out there you very unlikely to become one of them...how many hardworking people lost their savings in this last recession through the stock market? A life's work, seems a little calous ...and where did the wealth go?
Statisyics, my numbers are for the USA, and if I was Publishing a paper perhaps I would cite them, and we both know numbers can be played with, even your statistics support my argument.
I choose humanity over profits anyday...
On Friday November 20 2009, a person leaked or hacked into email files at the Climate Research Unit at Britain's Hadley Centre which, along with NASA, is the source of temperature data used to support the theory that man-made carbon dioxide (CO2) is warming the globe to catastrophic levels. Phil Jones, the director of the Climate Research Unit, said the files are authentic. You can download them here:
http://www.filedropper.com/foi2009 or http://www.megaupload.com/?d=003LKN94
Those emails revealed that scientists colluded to manipulate the evidence to show human activity was dangerously raising global temperatures.
This evidence is used as the basis for the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change reports that form the basis for the Kyoto and Copenhagen Accords.
We cannot allow a fraud to drain more jobs and hard-earned tax dollars from Canada. Any extension of the Kyoto Accord at Copenhagen would redistribute scarce resources from productive to unproductive activities, reduce wages, kill jobs and leave families shivering in the dark with their budgets running on empty.
Answer...you can not, so stop protecting the super elite, and develop a critical analyze of whats going on!
People grudgingly pay whatever cost increase TransLink demands when diesel fuel prices go up or when TransLink through incompetence raises fares to cover costs. When you are being asked to voluntarily pay a few more pennies each time you use transit to protect the health of residents on bus routes and the health of everyone else in Vancouver, you balk. Maybe you need to re-evaluate your priorities in life.
Define Elites. Maybe I am, so how would you know unless you gave me a definition? You have no idea why I stop in here from time to time. And yes capitalism does have its faults, no argument there. And China is communist, run by the communist party and delving into capitalism in a big way because.... its raising the standard of living in their country.
Do not mistake the naivete of investors and the gullible for all the ills of capitalism. It is one of the pitfalls of an imperfect system. So because my portfolio did not suffer like others, I am what, an evil capitalist? Perhaps a shrewd investor?
Compare the other countries of the world and how their standard of living compares to ours. Even lowly immigrants coming to this country receive actually more money per month than our senior citizens who have worked their entire life now get. This is all on the back of the Canadian taxpayer, of which hopefully, you are one as well.
If you want a study in true communism, research the Hutterite colonies of the prairies.
So who built this country and mined its natural resources and how did we get where we are today with a bathroom or 4 in every house, computers in the house, cell phones, cars in the driveway, clothes on our backs?
So why cannot the rest of the world follow our example? The amount of financial and goods donated to various parts of the world are from who? Disaster aid comes from who?
The continuous forgiving of loans by Canada to African nations is paid for by whom? What standard of living are you willing to tolerate? Half of your present income? How much are you willing to give up to equalize the playing field world wide? How many overseas charities do you support? What are you doing at home? It all sounds like you want more and cant get it so everybody else should give it to you.
As far as the 12 cents per bus ride, bushwa. "A private report estimates that diesel bus emissions kill eight people annually in the Lower Mainland if you want to put a human cost to it." Point me to the study.
If you are able to read between the lines, the report listing eight deaths attributable to diesel exhaust emission (bus routes are the only places where diesel exhaust emission concentrations are high enough to be toxic and lethal) is as follows:
http://www.metrovancouver.org/about/publications/Publications/DieselPart...
Another good report is as follows:
http://vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/001205/a6.htm
"The association of PM10 with mortality on a daily basis, has been confirmed by many studies in different locations. Both respiratory and cardiovascular causes are included. This association has been shown to exist in every urban location in which it has been tested, with the exception of Vancouver (S. Vedal and M. Brauer, pers comm., October 1998), where PM10 levels may be too low for the association to be detected." No deaths in Vancouver.
1. "This report has been reviewed by the representatives of the Onroad Diesel Emissions Evaluation Task Force, but the interpretation of the results of this study, as expressed in the report, is entirely the responsibility of the consultants and does not imply endorsement of specific points of view by any or all of the agencies represented on the Task Force."
2. "The current health impacts of diesel particulate matter are sufficiently low based on the analysis in this study to not be of a high level of concern relative to the current lifetime risk of cancer of all kinds."
Your second link: "3) There is relatively little data on the levels of DEP around the lower mainland. While the results of monitoring done elsewhere can be extrapolated to the lower mainland, this is not a good substitute for local information. Estimation of exposure through traffic volumes may introduce considerable error. Better quantification of public exposure to DEP in the lower mainland would not be difficult to perform and would help to better characterize the extent of any health risks."
Did you actually read the report or just throw w link for some form of credibility?
Is the last paragraph of my post the only one you read, or just don't want to answer any of the questions posed?
Cancer and asthma risks depend on the PM concentration over ~1 microgram/m3 as the report states. What the report doesn't state is that PM concentrations on bus routes routinely far exceed 40 microgram/m3 for residents near the road and living above the height of the exhaust plume where the emissions are trapped and cannot disperse, especially in the case of soot blowing diesel buses. The absolute number of deaths by TransLink is open to debate as it depends upon many factors and is based on statistical analysis. Regardless, diesel buses are not improving anyone's health on trolley bus routes, and the operation of diesel buses on trolley bus routes has statistically caused many cancer and asthma victims and deaths in Vancouver. That is the truth as you surely can appreciate as you read the DEP report.
Debate is what democracy is all about. I know from firsthand experience that with the stimulus of confrontational views I would rarely learn anything new.
Listening, reading and talking only to people who agree with us does not stimulate thought. Frankly I like to think and I enjoy a good debate. So, thank you again to The Straight.
Communism, I think if you actually read some academic papers on the concept you would call not China a communist country and further your showcasing of ignorance would not give me the Hutterites as an example of a communist state of being. A hint Visigoth, read the Communist Manifesto and look up Wallerstein's World System Theory, may assist you next time you respond, if you do.
Elites, you are correct, definitions are important, does Harper invite you into closed quarters and ask you how to reconstitute The Security, Prosperity, and Partnership Agreement? Are you one of the media magnets who desiminate ideologies to masses, and act as a gatekeeper on different ideologies? When was the last time you went to the Council of Foreign Relations gathering to present on how to further entrench exploitive practices around the globe?
You are correct that we are fortunate to live in a country like Canada, I recognize that statement is relative to something, do you? The whole point I was raising, which you refuse to address, is that we developed at someone else's expense, development creates underdevelopment, do you agree or disagree? The article you shared with the readers only supports the argument I am raising, why do you avoid answering this?
Underdeveloped nations do not want hand-outs Visigoth, they want to develop their respective nations and peoples. They want to create opportunities for their men, women, and children, why do you not see this, and what does that say about you?Forgiving of loans, please we "the developed world" give them "loans" after we spent the last 500 years ripping them off, labelling them as inferior based on this false concept of "race", we should be asking them for forgiveness on how we continue to prevent the one billion people from reaching their potential.
Visigoth...do you believe that we underdeveloped the continent of Africa as a whole? Lets see if and how you answer this question.
You do not have to answer those questions, you already have so save us and you the exercise.
Whats that saying
You can drag a white anglo saxon protestant, conspicious colonial capitalist consuming close-minded pig dog to water, or something like that...?
All the same, thanks for your definition, and under that guise, I am not an elite.
The Hutterite colonies operate under a number of the same principals as the truly envisioned communist state excluding the religious aspect. Why don't you start with the NFB documentary of a few years ago, filmed on the prairies.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/hutterites/
http://www.nfb.ca/film/the_hutterites/?ac=g+hutterites
"Abolition of private ownership, nationalization of projects and establishments and the placing of the wealth of the whole nation in the hands of the government which will be directed by the proletariat from outside if they are not represented from within. In this context, Engels states that the proletariat take over political power and transfer the means of social production to public ownership in an attempt to escape control by the bourgeoisie." Well summarized point. (not yours)
Basically no private ownership, all for the state which cradles the masses equally. Check it out. The debate on this could take volumes.
"Visigoth...do you believe that we underdeveloped the continent of Africa as a whole?" No. Mugabe is doing a fine job at the moment. Rawanda shines as a center of inter related tolerance. We should have left the place alone, however, do you really think that they would enjoy the standard of living we have today, given their historical tribal development?
"The whole point I was raising, which you refuse to address, is that we developed at someone else's expense, development creates underdevelopment, do you agree or disagree?" I believe your original point was about Africa, and on that, Canada did not get developed at the expense of Africa.
"You can drag a white anglo saxon protestant, conspicious colonial capitalist consuming close-minded pig dog to water, or something like that...?" (sic)
Ad hominem, is that the best you can do?
Number one you have personally not read the Communist Manifesto, by Marx and Engels, further you have no clue what Wallerstein's World System Theory is, it's okay to admit you did not read it, or understand it. You should though, so you can give an informed response and inaddition is a facisinating read, not only one of the greatest minds of all time.
So do not pretend to have a clue about the evolution of human society and the power distribution of those societies by passing off something on the Hutterites. What are you afraid of going to the source and reading for yourself and making your decisions, or you one of those sheeps who absorbs someones else'e position?
Is not my job to school you, but you certaintly would benefit from looking up Wallerstein's World System Theory, and look at the current situation the world is in, would be interested to see your take on the Copenhagen Treaty and how that fits in? At least your could try and develop some form of intellectual based critical counter arguements.
Canada, Visigoth, is founded on the out right policy of genocide of the Indigenous Peoples. Do I have to school you on this as well? You see Visigoth, the process is virtually the same the world around, it is called colonialism and neo-colonialism, develop and impose "racial profiles" on the subjugated population, hey Visigoth can you see a pattern developing?
Africa continues to live with the shackles of their slave-masters, again you have to look at the history and patterns, from the past to the present. How many times have the elites undermined these various nations when ever they try to develop their respective nations for the people. Look up the current situation in Honduras, where there President was raising the minium wage uo, who backed the coup, there/ it is all there for you to learn, try the website democracynow, if your the least bit interested in getting a comprehensive view of the situation.
Please try to give an informed response to the points I raised here please.
Your pattern suggest that you do not allow yourself to learn on topics you do not understand, but certainly have positions. I refuse to believe that you are really that closed minded, so I will suggest you look up Mr. John Perkins, and listen to what he has to say, you can find him on the internet , on youtube.
Perkins? Get a grip.
"Canada, Visigoth, is founded on the out right policy of genocide of the Indigenous Peoples." That primarily summarizes your would be position on any relevant topic.
You are either subjugated and cow down or you dont'. I guess the countries that nationalized all the foreign interest in their country did not bow down. I will watch Chavez with greater interest now....
That is readily apparent, on the positive side I and other readers of these comments can clearly see that you are a fraud. Your unwillingness to take the time to understand opposing beliefs, backed by numerous studies says a great deal about your stunted intelligence, that is yours to wear, and I am sure others can see this as clear as I.
I want to concede some point to you but I can not as you where unable to make a valid argument, the ongoing deflection or outright denial by you shows that it is impossible to have a responsible, mature, and logical debate of issues.
Perhaps it is time to get rid of the Visigoth name (code for neo-nazi) and try again. As for me I have had enough of you and your I,Me, MY simple positions on issues that can only be framed within the context of historical processes that have created systematic discrimination that plays itself out in racist ideologies and see's the oppression continue.
How does that famous saying go...
Show me the Intelligence...something like that?
Seems like the we are one of the worst emittors in the world and have no interest in meeting the guidelines of Kyoto or Copenhagen Agreement. Does this reflect Canadian values, I personally do not think so , I know he has agreed to go to Copenhagen but for what?
And for your information a visigoth is a term given to one of the Teutonic people, a western group of Goths who sacked Rome and set up a kingdom from about 410 to 711 AD. It has nothing to do with neo-nazi as you try and intimate in a clumsy fashion to augment your distorted views and discredit mine. Fortunately I have traced my heritage to that area of Southern France, and that is why I use it, rather than your example in ongoing diatribe of left wing claptrap with continuous name changes to obscure your rather feeble theories. Oops, I stooped to your level again. How gauche of me.
Oh I forgot, your an elite, and need not do this mundane activity as you know it all in your mind. Your responses or lack thereof, forces me to fill the vacum left by you.
You see visigoth, when a people or person becomes stagnant, they begin to become obsolete, I am not sure you can be objective enough to see this of yourself. Your last "response" to my questions you again did not answer, in fact you did not read any of the information i gave you, you simply brushed aside, discounted academia on numerous fronts, your actions not mine, I reviewed the "information" you supplied, and refuted you, and in fact incorporated your information for my positions.
So you see Visigoth, when you get challenged on your positions your pattern is to deflect or pretend to know what your talking about, your actions, I am simply responding to the logical ideological outcomes of your "positions"...but I must admit, I am ready to move on are you?
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