News and Views » Straight Talk

Vancouver cyclist says electric scooters pose danger to self-propelled riders

By Carlito Pablo,

Seen an electric scooter on the road lately?

Avid Vancouver cyclist Chris Keam did quite recently, and he says one almost ran him off the road.

According to Keam, the arrival of these two-wheeled vehicles, mostly manufactured in China, poses a threat to self-propelled bike riders.

“They’re way heavier than a regular bicycle, so if you get hit with one you get all that mass and inertia happening, and they can also accelerate faster,” Keam told the Straight by phone.

He explained that these electric scooters come with pedals, which are usually taken off after purchase.

“The reason the pedals are on there is so they qualify as bicycles,” he said.

Keam noted that there are no regulations yet regarding the use of these electric scooters.

All he knows at this point is that it’s dangerous to mix them with regular bikes that aren’t going as fast and heavy.

“I honestly don’t know yet what the solution is but I know it’s a problem that’s waiting to happen,” Keam said.

Cyclists in Quebec have taken note of the same issue.

The cycling group Vélo Québec sent the Straight on July 7 the following statement:

Vélo Québec asks SAAQ [Quebec automobile insurance corporation] to ban electric scooters on bicycle paths

The proliferation of electric scooters, sometimes marketed under the name of electric bikes, is raising questions about the use of bicycle paths. At present, there are no clear rules specifying which vehicles are authorized to use bicycle paths in Quebec. Because of their weight, size, speed and capacity for acceleration, the arrival on the market of various types of scooters can represent a threat for cyclists. These vehicles should not be permitted on bicycle paths, but should rather be driven on the street with other motor vehicles.

Vélo Québec is requesting that the SAAQ issue a regulation banning electric scooters from bike lanes and bike paths. Vélo Québec stresses, however, that electric assist bicycles raise no problems, as human power is required to move the bike forward. The battery of the electric assist bike is only intended to amplify the movement of the crankset and provide limited assistance, while an electric scooter advances on the strength of its engine alone. The only purpose of pedals on such scooters is to respect regulations; they are ineffective in advancing the scooter.

Vélo Québec is also asking the SAAQ to make representations to Transport Canada to clearly categorize the various types of vehicles entering the market and to make sure users are aware of where they are authorized to drive.

Vélo Québec asks that all municipalities ensure that bike paths and bike lanes are used for active transportation only.

Comments

montyvan
Let me guess, the solution will be to close down more lanes and designate them as "scooter-only" lanes. That will be right next to the lane for skateboards, right next to the lane for rollerblades, right next to the lane for Segways... People need to learn the rules of the road and not act like dicks, but, some people are just dicks no matter what.
 
adibese
Wait, so these "self-propelled" cyclists are safe? I've been hit twice by these nuts, and my brother had his leg broken by one who smashed into his leg. The electric bike riders I've seen ride slowly and much safer.
 
Ryan Goldvine
Yes, they're heavier, and yes, in most cases they can accelerate faster. Some of them are bigger, heavier and accelerate faster than others.

The risk, however, is in the rider. Just as not all cyclists (or drivers, for that matter) are courteous or obey the rules of traffic, I'm sure there are a number of riders of these electric scooter/bikes may not be courteous or obey the rules of traffic either.

I, for one, slow down when there are a crowd of cyclists or pedestrians, and I won't pass someone on a bicycle or on foot unless I can do so safely.

I must, however, note that a number of cyclists go faster than these bikes are capable of and pass me on the road not infrequently. I also want to note that I see more cyclists running red lights and stop signs, or not wearing helmets, than I've seen riders of electric bikes/scooters doing the same.

Just a few days ago I was crossing Hastings on a green light as a car who wasn't paying attention came to a screeching halt in the intersection when he realised he had a red light. A cyclist travelling in the same direction as the car ran the red light entirely and as he was passing the offending car, he yelled at him "nice move".

I think if everyone is courteous and obeys the rules of the road bicycles and electric bikes/scooters can share the bike paths/lanes/trails together.
 
Birdy
1. Electric components of an electric bike (motor/battery/controller) weigh about 15-20 lbs. So you can forget that argument. "Way heavier" my ass. How about people with 15 pound backpacks? Should that be banned too?

2. Electric bikes are limited to 32 kph. I see people on human-powered bikes hitting 50 kph all the time (some of which are easily 15 pounds overweight). So again, your illogical argument fails.

3. "Cyclists in Quebec have taken note of the same issue" Um, no. The statement from Vélo Québec is about electric SCOOTERS. Different animal.

4. "Keam noted that there are no regulations yet regarding the use of these electric bikes" I guess Keam doesn't have access to google: Motor Vehicle Act 182.1-184: Motor assisted cycles
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=MOTOR+ASSISTED+CYCLE+REGULATION

5. Why do you actually hate e-bikes? I'll take a guess; "electricity is evil and it's hurting the environment"? ENOUGH ALREADY hippies, stop hating everything. What the fuck happened to peace and love? Go hug someone and cheer up.
 
rriiiighhht
Untl i see "self-propelled" cyclists acting safe and following rules I have no sympathy for their concerns about how others are.

IMO both electric and self propelled cyclists need to be required to get yearly insurance and a license if they which to ride in the downtown core.

 
Richard C
Electric bikes are really no problem at all compared to cars which kill 400 people a year in BC. The more electric bikes get people out of their cars, the safer the roads will be for pedestrians, cyclists and motorists. Lets focus on real problems instead of trying to make mountains out of mole hills.
 
Chris Keam
My comments to Carlito were regarding electric scooters, not electric bikes, which is unfortunately, not entirely clear in the article, although the remark I made about taking off the pedals might make it more obvious which type of vehicle I was referring to in my conversation. Electric scooters are much more than 15-20 pounds heavier than a regular bicycle and are also heavier than an e-bike, which incidentally, I think are great, as they open up cycling to a whole lot of people who would be challenged by the physical exertion of a non-power-assisted bicycle.

A good example of the type of vehicle I think needs a closer look would be something like this:

http://www.e-ride.ca/Electric_Scooters/Motorino_XPe.html

which weighs anywhere from 55kg to 75kg depending on battery choice. I don't know of too many regular bicycles that weigh over one hundred pounds even with panniers attached.

Regarding speed, while it's true that a fit rider could probably maintain 32 kph for most of the day, your average rider is going slower for the most part and speed differentials are always a problem, on regular roads, bike paths, and even sidewalks. I don't think taking a closer look at e-scooters is a bad idea. I certainly don't think it makes me a hippie, or an electricity hater or whatever, but this is the Internet, so I'll leave y'all to jump to conclusions as is S.O.P. in this realm.

And yes, I do have access to Google and am quite familiar with the current e-bike regulations.

cheers,
CK

 
spartikus
E-Bikes are just fine, thanks...but lately there's been a dude who has been driving his across the Cambie Street Bridge. On the east sidewalk. At full speed. He's going to kill someone.

As for Birdy seeing overweight people going 50km/h....sadly, no. The typical cycling speed is 30km/h. A fit person on a racing bike can get to that speed on flat ground, for a short distance.

Don't exaggerate.
 
Chris Keam
"1. Electric components of an electric bike (motor/battery/controller) weigh about 15-20 lbs. So you can forget that argument. "Way heavier" my ass. How about people with 15 pound backpacks? Should that be banned too?"

Just the motor alone on an e-bike weighs about 15 lbs.

http://www.ebikes.ca/store/photos/M4011F26.jpg
 
kazza
Tell those folks to if they want to ride in a bike lane they gotta put the pedals back on and ride! Just sayin'.=-D
 
R U Kiddingme
Regular bicyclists give me far more worries. As a daily cyclist, I am -- daily -- closely passed (on either side) by other cyclists who cut in front, and of course never beep their horn or give any warning. I find electric bikes a bit puzzling -- the cost of a scooter without the performance, the exposure of a bike without the exercise -- but that's their problem.
 
Stephen Hui
Thank you for the clarification, Chris Keam.

I've updated the article to reflect the fact you were referring to electric scooters.
 
Mark F.- mdf292 at yahoo dotty ca
@ Birdy. Don't think you get it. This is about electric scooters that come with a set of peddles. Before they styling changed to make them look like gas powered scooters something like this would be called a moped - the peddles provided as a backup to the gas / electricity they run primarily on.
 
Mark F.- mdf292 at yahoo dotty ca
@montyvan. Yes everyone needs to learn the rules of the road including speed. Maybe dropped the speed limits to 30km on all city streets is a solution to bring everyone down to a closer level playing field.
 
Kevin Young at Utah eBikes
Chris, sorry you were nearly run off the road by a scooter-style ebike, but how many times have you been passed safely? Isn't the problem with the operator, not the bike? Yes, they are heavier than regular bikes, but they don't accelerate faster nor attain faster top speeds (I am often passed by cyclists). Because there is no work involved in acceleration, I find scooter ebike riders MORE likely than regular cyclists to obey stop signs and slow down around groups. Maybe the article should have called for common courtesy rather than targeting an entire group of vehicles based on one irresponsible rider.

I'm sure Vancouver bike lanes are more crowded than what I am used to, but not as crowded as the streets of Wuxi, China, where we can see in this video lots of scooter-style ebikes getting along smoothly with bicycles (none of the "scooters" you see are gas-powered): http://bit.ly/9Oi88c

Disclaimer: I am biased in favor of ebikes: I ride and sell scooter-style and pedal-assist ebikes made by Veloteq
 
Bill
Unfortunately, form what I've seen of their "behaviour" on the roads, most of the people riding these things are clearly too lazy to ride a bike, and too stupid to drive.
 
Ricki
I have been riding an electric scooter for several years and I cannot count the amount of times I've witnessed cyclists run red lights, illegially cross over lanes in the downtown core, interrupting traffic and creating havoc, including endangering other cyclists/scooters that are obeying the laws.
I ride more cautious than a typical cyclist, aware of the mix of vehicles, cyclists, scooter, moped/motorcycles, pedestrians. IT ALL COMES DOWN TO RESPECTING OTHERS ON THE STREETS AND PATHWAYS AND OBEYING THE EXISTING LAWS WHICH HAVE BEEN PUT IN PLACE AND WOULD WORK IF OTHERS CO-OPERATED. I've noticed a lot of resentment and anger between vehicles and cyclists and to target a few bad operators is myopic and speaks volumes of how the cyclists feel that they have more rights on the road than others. Put your helmets on and behave!
 
jerkin the gherkin
i'll bet gordo is whacking off reading yet another story about the little people bickering over trivial horse shit.
 
Birdy
Chris, I jumped the gun there, I'm sorry about that. You seem like a decent guy and I agree that 55 - 75kg vehicles shouldn't be classified as bicycles.

I was coming/jumping to conclusions based on what the article originally said.

Thanks Carlito, for rewriting your article without putting an 'updated' note to explain what you changed. Please work on not using non-synonymous words interchangeably in the future. As in 'scooter' and 'bike'.

re: "Just the motor alone on an e-bike weighs about 15 lbs."
The PL250 Light for example, has a motor weighing 7.7 lbs and a battery that only weighs 4.2 lbs
http://www.jvbike.com/eps_kit.htm

re: "As for Birdy seeing overweight people going 50km/h....sadly, no. The typical cycling speed is 30km/h."
So tell me, do the police give out speeding tickets based on your typical speed? Or is it more commonly for short bursts of excessive speeds? We have these things around Vancouver often referred to as "hills" that actually make it quite easy to go very fast, if only temporarily, no matter your fitness level.
 
Chris Keam
Kevin:

I agree with most of your comments but can't let this:
"but they don't accelerate faster" stand unchallenged. I rode a Giant Twist Freedom for two weeks last year as part of a story I was writing on e-bikes and they absolutely accelerate faster than a regular bike and rider under most conditions, esp. uphill or from a standing start.

As the article notes, I propose no solution but simply believe this is a situation that needs to be monitored, esp. on bike routes, where you are more likely to find slow, inexperienced and/or young cyclists.
 
Walker
Chris, your experience with electric bikes is what pedestrians experience daily with cyclists riding on the sidewalks. Except, riding your bike on the sidewalk is actually a bylaw infraction in Vancouver. Electric bikes are allowed to use the road with you.
 
Chris Keam
I wouldn't condone riding on sidewalks where there are pedestrians, but nonetheless, it's not relevant. What I'm talking about is keeping an eye on the developing e-scooter issues that are also being identified in other places, and trying to address issues before they become problematic.

Making it about cyclists obeying the rules of the road is no more relevant than making it about drivers' failing to obey the rules at unmarked intersections. They are certainly issues, but they aren't relevant to the story.
 
Chris Van Ihinger
There's no such thing as a dangerous electric scooter - just dangerous operators.

There are three "flavours" of electric powered two-wheelers in the market today:
- Pedal-assisted bicycles that are designed and built like bicycles;
- Pedal-assisted scooters that are designed to look like scooters;
- Licenced electric bikes (in some jurisdictions called (e-bikes, to differentiate from pedal-assisted bikes) , most of which look like scooters.

The two pedal-assist varieties operate under clearly defined rules of top motor-driven speed (32 kph), maximum motor power (500 watts) and the pedals must remain attached. When these three criteria are met, they are allowed to operate on the road under bicycle rules.
The licenced scooters are permitted to go faster than 32 kph, are permitted motors up to 1.5 KW and don't need pedals. They must have turn signals, horn, brake lights and a licence plate. The operator needs to hold a valid driver's licence, any class. They are restricted to operating on the road under moped rules.

Those of us who like our pedal assist bikes truly enjoy the freedom of a little better acceleration on the flat, and easier operation on hills and into winds. We tend to resent the occasional operator who removes the pedals from the scooter. We are concerned that social interest groups like Velo Quebec may try to have all types of pedal-assist bikes banned from park cycle paths and other areas that traditionally allow bicycles of all types.

And just like responsible cyclists who disdain those cyclists (and motorists) who behave badly in traffic, we resent the occasional operator who rides a scooter in an unsafe manner.
 
spartikus
@Birdy,

We have these things around Vancouver often referred to as "hills" that actually make it quite easy to go very fast, if only temporarily, no matter your fitness level.

Gee. you didn't seem to mention "hills" in your first comment, but congrats on the post facto rationalization. Shall we add tail winds to the equation too?

I guess eBikes aren't affected by gravity. Wondrous things.
 
Tammy
I have an electric scooter, and for the comment made that these are only for ppl too lazy or too stupid to drive a car; you're obviously too lazy or too stupid to look a bit closer at what these are used for.
When I'm riding on my scooter, I'm way more cautious than half the idiots driving cars, I've almost been hit several times by an impatient driver who couldn't wait in line on the road and used the bike lane to pass everyone on the outside of the road, and then looks surprised cuz he didn't see me. Drivers seem to think they own every part of the road.
As for cyclists, I've never had a problem, I use the same cycling rules, I let ppl know I'm coming up on their left or their right, or i honk if they have earphones on (yes, I know!) so for anyone complaining, they have no right to. When everyone starts paying attention in their vehicles and on their cycle of any kind, there won't be a problem, but since I live in the Lower Mainland, I've given up trying to understand how half of the population got their license.
I drive safe and I pay attention. That's all there is to it
 
gary
I agree totally with you Tammy,i have an electric pedal assisted scooter and find it very convenient and safe to get around on and heaps of fun too.Hope we can chat more and maybe become friends
 
t wong
In Shanghai, cars generally travel at a slower pace and so are the bikes, hence, it is less likely you would get killed riding a bike, except, yes except by trucks and buses - they are reckless. Shanghai has nice bike lanes and I feel much safer riding in Shanghai compared to Richmond BC where some car drivers think they own the roads.

Electric scooters are getter bigger each passing day in Shanghai, and they can be the the worst riders. They travel with no engine noise and run all red lights, we call them silent killers.
 
FrozenDorian
hey here is an idea - let's ban all machine powered vehicles and designated Vancouver cyclist and horse access only.

We could even have a commuter lane for those who want to have 3 or more people on their bike or horse.

But seriously - bicycles are dangerous, they should be limited to seawall and bike roads only.
 
bikeguy
I think cyclists should support electric transportation. If they have to share the bike path as a show of solidarity in the environmental cause, then so be it. Perhaps the freedom to ride anywhere would attract some people to electric bikes, and away from their cars. Cyclists are the last people that should be criticizing clean energy policies. So please think before you complain. It's becoming Vancouvers most popular armchair sport, and that's a problem. thanks.
 
Robert d'Matti
Self-propelled cyclists, especially in Commercial Drive, have a seething hatred for SUV's and irrationally hate electric powered scooters and bikes. The "Momentum" magazine people from circa 1999-2003 didn't even want to hear about electric bikes. (The Momentum magazine today is more upscale and 'likes' electric bikes, but not electric scooters, yet.)

You'll see the anti-electric bike/scooter types at the last-Friday-of-the-month Critical Mass bike rallies downtown -- the hardcore cyclists will practically spit at anybody on an electric 'ride.

The same irrational 'clan' thinking can be found with vintage Vespa fan clubs and their contempt for modern Vespa scooters.

Sadly, we are all victims of the Illuminati divide-and-conquer strategy, if we continue to think that in such divisive ways.

My view is that the 'Commercial Drive' cyclists often run red lights because they would lose momentum if they stopped; whereas, the electric scooterists do stop, as they simply have to push a button to get back up to speed.

Furthermore, there really isn't any problem from electric scooters, as their numbers have (by my informal count) dwindled to about 10% of their original numbers on the road; electric scooters had their hayday in 2005, and have been dying rapidly since Climategate was discovered.

Don't forget that the Authorities have an imbedded interest in getting electric scooters off the roads --- the governments coffers come from gasoline taxes, car licenses, not electricity. When people get sick from diesel smog, the pharmaceutical companies can sell us patented monopoly drugs.

Cars kill people even if they just in them -- read "Lives Per Gallon" by government-insider author Terry Taminen; you will likely stop riding your nice, new car after his sobering book.

As for the Georgia Strait -- I am disappointed at the one-sided article.
 
Anonymous: The Sequel
I have been riding an electric scooter for coming on 3 years now. I must weigh in on this topic to say that it is absolutely ludicrous to group us all into one category, as this article does. I have never once caused a cyclist or motor vehicle operator to be put in harms way. However, I have been put in harms way by a motor vehicle. Much like a car, I was travelling on the right side of the road, following all rules of the road and a motorist made a left turn DIRECTLY in front of me. It was the middle of the day, so no excuse for "not seeing" me. He obviously just didn't look for ANY oncoming traffic. I hit his car head on because I didn't have time to brake. Funny thing is that his car would no longer function and had to call a tow truck. I, on the other hand, was able to get back on my "scooter" and continue with only minor cosmetic done to my ride... anyhow, back on topic...

The point I wanted to make is that there are many of us "electric commuters" who understand the rules of the road better than anyone else. Because we find ourselves in a grey area of the classification pool, we need to make certain that we don't get into any trouble. I have always honked and notified upon approach of anyone on a bicycle. Likewise, I have notified other "scooter commuters" (I like that one!) upon my approach as well.

The only time I ever find myself in a position to cause problems for anyone on a bicycle is at the intersection of Union & Main. Almost EVERY CYCLIST BELIEVES THAT THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO ADVANCE THROUGH A RED LIGHT WHEN THE PEDESTRIAN CROSSING SIGNAL SAYS "WALK!" On regular occasion, while crossing the intersection on my designated green light from the West side of the intersection to the East side of the intersection (on Union), a cyclist blows through and turns in front of me at full speed. Then, they proceed to scream some obscenity at me for almost hitting them or cutting them off. According to the law, I am doing nothing wrong and THEY are violating the rules of the road.

So, it's not us "electric scooter commuters" necessarily that need to learn more about the rules of the road. EVERYONE ON THE ROAD NEEDS TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THE RULES OF THE ROAD!

As for driver's licences? I know several people who have attained their full driver licence via a $1000 payoff to their tester in Richmond. Apparently, the word is getting around that you don't need to know ANYTHING about the rules of the road in order to acquire the power to kill someone with a car. You just need a big enough wallet! Now THAT is something news worthy that some of these articles should be focusing on.
 
 
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