OK..let me get this straight....

A Liberal from BC is criticizing another party for doing somethings that is "bad for democracy".

Can we add Joyce Murray to the list of people to e recalled?

The irony is so think I can barely breath.

HST anyone? Not listening to the will of the people? getting your rich friends to sue the anti-hst campiagn?! 

What a load of nonsense. There will still be a census in 2011. What will be different this time: those who object to answering 60 pages of questions beyond the basic will no longer be threatened with jail. Is that tyranny? No. For the genealogists who follow in 100 years, they will have nearly the same information that has been available to family and researchers (in fact more than in the early decades). Questions asked on the current long form will still be answered. There is nothing to fear (and perhaps fewer Jedi Warriors). 

Tyranny does Joyce Murray know what the word means.......Harper is know more a tyrant than she is!!!
It is not bad for Canada, StatsCan should be voluntary, we don't want the gov't in our business as a taxpayer.

GO HARPER GO 

A liberal MP you say? I'm shocked I tell you! Shocked! 

Really? How does giving people more freedom of choice translate to tyranny? Perhaps if they made the long form mandatory for all it would be.  

THEY ARE SENDING SOLDIERS, INTO THE CITIES, IN CANADA, I'M NOT MAKING THIS UP.

WHAT"S NEXT, MASS GRAVES -- WHY ELSE WOULD THEY BE DIGGING THOSE BIG HOLES IN THE OILSANDS!!! 

it's "tyranny" and "bad for democracy" only when it fits her political agenda.

yet she doesn't question herself about how she helped ram through the HST on the federal side despite nobody ever voting for it and massive opposition to it.

 

A government giving its citizens freedom of choice is now considered tyrannical? I thought a government removing freedom of choice constituted tyranny. How times have changed. If this is tyranny, please, sir, I want some more. 

I was forced to fill out the long census years ago. When I didn't send it in, I was threatened with a fine and/or jail. I thought, some free country this is. I am with the Conservatives on this. 

Hmmm, mysteriously, no one has any comment on this??? 

"Mandatory" = conservative tyranny
"Voluntary" = liberal democracy

I think Joyce has gotten her politics bass ackward ..!!! 

Ya, I agree that they should leave the census alone but Liberal hyperbole about "Conservative government moving towards tyranny" is exactly why nobody in Canada can take them seriously at the moment. The liberals don't need to say that Harper has a hidden agenda, is dictatorial, etc. etc, all they need to do is say he is not a good leader. He put the G20 in Toronto, we'd put it in Edmonton, he wants to make the census non-mandatory, we want to reform it so it only asks the most important and useful information. We'll get rid of the penny. We'll get rid of non-biodegradeable plastic bags, etc etc. Things Canadians can get behind. Build a platform in this way. Demagoguery is useless and does not convince Canadians like it does our American cousins. 

May Canadians across the land rise in revolt and demand they too be forced to fill out a long form census.
Please let us have an election on this issue.
 

I suggest you email her directly if you think her "bad for democracy" comments seem ironic considering how the HST has been handled by the liberals.

Murraj1@parl.gc.ca 

Best laugh I've had all week. Thank you Joyce Murray for the side splitting comments.

From 1933 to 1939 Adolph Hitler achieved power almost uncontested. Surely it must have been the lack of a long form census among the German populous that elevated him to his tyrannical ransacking of Europe.

 

MP means member of parliament. In other words she is a federal liberal not a B.C.Liberal - which would be an MLA. The B.C.Liberals are right wing neocons that share Harpers psycho agenda yes.

The federal liberals have their flaws but they shine next to Gordon Campbell et al.

Try to ask yourself why a right wing government would not want certain questions asked about income, family size,... what do the answers indicate? 

Munir Sheikh, resigned over the move and fired off a parting letter claiming a voluntary survey cannot replace the mandatory questionnaire.
..................................................................................................
Mr.Sheikh and his 6000 StatsCan workers need a rude awakening.

This is 2010,the age of computers and polling companies.
These questions can be asked and gotten quickly within an error of margin 2.5%,19 times out of 20.

How many toilets do I own?

Ask me,don't tell me.
 

@Wait
How right you are! Let's face it a certain man 200 years ago summed it all up quite well... "There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty." - John Adams. Yeah it's american but truth is truth no matter what. 

Let me get this straight. She thinks that LESS government intrusion into peoples personal business will lead to tyranny? Does she know what tyranny is? Does she realize that these long form census forms are the tool of a tyrannical government?
 

Getting rid of the long form census?

Tyranny? Not at all.

Stupid? Completely. Voluntary statistics are pointless. 

Harper's decision to scrap the mandatory long-form census is a clear message: I don't care who you are, Canadians. I'll spend your money how ever I want.

Both taxes and a thorough census can be positive tools in a democracy. Do you think everyone would pay their taxes if it wasn't mandatory? Do you think the majority of Canadians will complete the census when it's not mandatory?

Each is dependent on the other for the efficiency and prosperity of our civilization.  

.... so, giving people the right to refuse something they are required to do now under penalty of fines and prison... is tyranny??

Not to mention this particular person she has labeled a tyrant leads a minority parliament and can be removed any time should enough liberals actually vote against him.

And this Headline is posted right under a header "straight talk". Gotta love irony in the media. 

Trying to determine why so few respondents care about this issue.

I don't know if this article helps the average Joe. The 'circular reasoning' in the article doesn't help.

Joyce Murray (Liberal) cites the resignation of Canada's chief statistician as "highly unusual" (which it may be) -- but then tells us that this is "a very strong indication that the Minister (Conservative Clement) has not been telling the truth."-----------summarized as: "The minister is saying one thing and then a well-paid and respected civil servant publicly resigns--that tells you the minister has not been telling the truth."

Charlie Angus (NDP) who similar to Ms. Murray supports keeping the 'long gun census' describes the crisis as "completely manufactured"

Now - I believe I understand why the various groups and agencies want this information -- but the people who provide it are far less concerned---are there more compelling arguments than this------? 

Rational seems simple enough. If government knows stuff it is their responsibility. With no mandatory census they have a better chance of claiming ignorance of regional issues.
 

Stevey "Brimstone" Harpo's strategy of appealling to fans of the Simpson's is an effective one.

Anti science, anti intellectual arguments are very effective in bringing out the Tea Party types amongst us who believe they are just as smart as these F'ing scientist types that are just in it for the money.

As you can see, Brimstone has managed to bring a motley collection of conbots over to the Str8 to comment.
seth 

Harper is untruthful when he claims this is about respecting privacy.

The Census protects privacy by scrubbing tje data of personal identifiers and suppressing numbers below a certain level. The agency is the only one in the country with the legal right to conduct a census. Statistics Canada abides by the law. This is an absolute travesty to suggest it breaches privacy.

Secondly, Harper is proposing a copyright bill that requires ISPs to spy on clients. (80% of Canadians use the Internet at home. He doesn't care a hoot about the privacy of citizens.

 

I agree with Charlie Angus that this is largely another Conservative import from US politics, but it has some Canadian antecendents as well. In 1984 the Mulroney Govt, following the Neilsen Review, announced that the 1986 Census would be cancelled. That decision was reversed a month later and the 1986 Census went ahead as originally planned, the first quinquennial Census to include a full long form like the decennial, after pressure from academics and professionals and other governments and most importantly business prevailed.


I expect the same thing to happen this time. Once the PMO gets the clear message that it's business on the phone and the answer is "N" and "O", ...the music will change pretty quicly. But that's OKay, ... because the donor base lunatics will forgive the about-face, they were just so damn happy to hear their government playing their song in public, despite denunciations and ridicule, for two or three weeks running.


Meantime, Harper gets to trim his Cabinet a bit having sent wild-eyed ideologue Tony Clement on a bloody death march. Nice power play, Steve!


The longer term legacy for the Tories isn't so good. Long after the donor base nuts have stopped sending in additional donations and business is satisfied they'll get their marketing stats, the academic community across the nation, from community colleges on up, is going to be notably more unfriendly territory for Conservatives. In that respect, there's a bit of self-fulfilling prophesy at work here. But the bottom line is that twenty years from now a young Tory going off to university or college, and being hurt to find that damn near every professor they talk to has a negative opinion of the Conservatives, can thank Stephen Harper's bit of summer time mischief for the attitude they're encountering.







Rod Smelser 

===>>> Nola Cewe

"Mandatory" = conservative tyranny
"Voluntary" = liberal democracy

I think Joyce has gotten her politics bass ackward ..!!!
===================================

Nola, I think your comment has become self-reflexive. You should really check back with your original source and do a complete copy and paste to avoid these kinds of embarassing errors:


http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/archives/014486.html#comments


In Canada:

"Mandatory" = Liberal democracy

"Voluntary" = Conservative tyranny

.. only in Canada...

Posted by: Observant at July 23, 2010 12:41 AM


Rod Smelser 

From most of these comments, I see the dumbing down of the people, which serves the Conservatives well, is gaining speed. All those elitist government people over the decades, creating programs that made this country liveable, have been replaced by our saviour, Stephen Harper, who's doing things we can understand. 

The guy had 38 years as a government employee and was going to retire anyway. Just doing the Libbys a favor on his way out the door. 

If the census results were just going to be used by sociologists 100 years from now, there'd be no reason to do it. The trouble is, it's used by governments (as well as businesses, but let's just talk about governments) for purposes of planning and for purposes of cutting rather large cheques.

An example of the sort of thing it might be used for would be federal government grants to provinces for programs to assist recent immigrants in adapting to Canada. (I don't know if it's actually used for this specific purpose, but this sort of thing.) In this case, the federal government will be cutting cheques to the different provinces based on census results of the number of people in each province who fit demographic profiles suggesting they might need such programs, and the provinces will be basing the size of their assistance programs based on the census results.

Without the census, planning for such programs would be based on hearsay. But with a voluntary census, it'll be much worse. The people running organizations whose funding depends on census results are very aware of it, however blissfully ignorant the public is. They'll be calling all their present clients, past clients, future clients: "you got a long-form census? FILL IT IN! Every form filled in is $$$ from Heritage Canada to our ethnic community!" (And there's nothing at all illegal or immoral about that: it's just playing a bureaucratic game by the rules.) Meanwhile, how many "ordinary" people, who don't have a perceived financial stake in the census results, are going to fill in a long form giving personal info to the government for no particular reason? The results of this voluntary "census" are going to be very, very strange.

There are people in government bodies right now thinking about where our next multibillion dollar skytrain line is going to go. If the census were going to be done appropriately, they would have used its results as one factor in their planning. As it is, they, like everyone else with a clue about statistics and a choice, aren't going to pay any more attention to these "census" results than they would to the pattern on a roll of toilet paper. But the bureaucrats cutting cheques at the federal government won't have that option.

Regarding the guy who talked about polls, polls aren't an alternative. "Right within x% 19 times out of 20" is salesperson-speak. What they mean when they say that is that IF they got the survey design correct, and IF nobody lied to them or all the lieing cancelled out, they'll get that reliability. Realistically, sometimes they get close and sometimes they don't. For just one example, polls massively overestimate the Green party vote every single election. Is that the kind of data anti-census types want the planning for multibillion dollar government programs and projects based on? Taxpayers' money wasted on bad decisions will very quickly make the Adscam money look like a drop in a bucket. And while it's really hard to get a poll right, it's also really easy for a pollster to deliberately distort a poll to get the answers the client wants to hear. Of course, if government policy were based on polls, no politician would ever *nudge nudge*, ever *wink wink* ask a pollster to get a result favouring or opposing some program they particularly liked or disliked...

This census change isn't about tyranny. But, at the moment, international organizations that compare corruption among governments (e.g. worldaudit.org) rank Canada's government among the 10 most honest in the world. (Scary thought, I know.) The changes caused by this change to the census will move us a few places down those rankings.
 

The issue as I see it is not so much the effects this will have as what Mr Harper is tryng to achieve.

This is part of a planned campaign too hide the effects of massive social cuts soon to come.

First the media is controlled, bought or coerced then the assessable Government information sources are closed down or privatized.

The poor then have no voice nor can the effects of government policy be tracked.

But never fear as your media keeps telling you its all for your own good!  

at the end of the day (with a few small differences)

Liberal = Conservative

VOTE NDP

for a sustainable Canada 

here's why:

At G20, Canada signed a document which agreed to two basic things. The countries that they called "advanced deficit countries" (includes Canada) would march down the path of more austerity (slash social infrastructure), and maybe some short-term stimulus, but they all agreed by 2013 they would halve their deficits.

Let them eat cake.


http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&I... 

Thanks Mike Carney -- Our polling uses alot of statistical data from Stats Canada -- even if just for a type of baseline. Although theoretically - getting rid of Stat Canada - indirectly increases the influence of pollsters/it's our experience - that what Stats Canada provides and what we do are not identical efforts by any stretch. A poll really is a sense of the time period --news, political events-------opinions---Stats Canada is not this.

I understand the importance of information from Stats Canada - I wanted to point out -- that I believe politico's and government people who want it worse than regular people want to give it up -------- need to make a better case than was done in this piece in my opinion. 

Michael Carney-long on pointless speech.

You write like the census is being eliminated,it's not.

The long form census,let me repeat, the long form census, is no longer going to be mandated by threat of jail if you don't fill it out,as it has been in the past.

The regular census will still exist.

If you feel it's your civic duty to fill it out,you will be able to volunteer to answer this 40 pages of long form census without fear of going to jail.

That's called democracy.

I like that,it gives me a sense of freedom from not answering questions if I don't want to answer them.

Here's a question for you about all the reasons you gave as to having a census......which is not an valid argument since the census will still exist.

How is the number of bedrooms in my house or
how often I hug my kid relevant to anything you claim is a necessity by mandating 40 page of long census?

There are far better ways to get answers to questions than to have 6000 StatsCan government employees on the payroll just to send you 40 pages of forms,that require you to fill them out and return them for evaluation,just to find out how many toilets you have in your home.

We live in the era of the information highway, redundant mandated methods of obtaining information from citizens needed to be reviewed, and this is a good start.




 

From a quick sample - there are many more Libertarians/Cynics on the other end of the phone - then on this particular blog stream. 

So the Liberals want us to give all of our most personal information to the Nazis? Uh. Okay.  

A point that seems to be ignored or lost on some people is that by exercising its power, government manages the country. Good management needs good and reliable information, information that has been generated from the long form census data.

Without that information, management decisions by government become arbitrary; that is to say the exercise of government power becomes arbitrary.

Tyranny is the arbtrary exercise of power. 

Rob - I don't see your 'easy' connection between government "exercising its power" and "managing (sic) the country"------------and the need for "good and reliable information---------------------generated from the long form census data (and no other type of format or information gathering?)

Don't forget -- Stats Canada has been known to make some pretty bad errors from time to time.

 

===>>> glen p robbins

Don't forget -- Stats Canada has been known to make some pretty bad errors from time to time.
=============================

They have? Like what?



Rod Smelser 

Those of you who seem to be buying into this 'government is intruding into my life' sentiment may want to ask yourselves where this idea comes from. How exactly is it such an intrusion to answer a few questions on an anonymous survey for the good of all Canadians?

Your country, province and community all function when we're willing to cooperate. In this day and age that means sharing information. Unless you agree to never use a public road, turn on your tap, go to the doctor, travel via an airport or visit a community centre, then you're effectively the user of a government service (directly or indirectly). And these services (not to mentions all the businesses) only meet the needs of Canadians if they have access to information about Canadians.

So please show some maturity and think before you spout off about government intrusiveness. Frankly it's insulting to those people in the world who have legitimate claims of oppression. We in Canada certainly do not, so let's start acting like citizens.
 

If the government wants (valuable) information they can pony up some cash, since they share (sell) it with other agencies anyway. Time is money and I don't have any extra to be spending on invasive data-mining spam-questionnaires. 'Nuff said. :3 

why the shit haven't we brought in electoral reform yet? why is this census an issue? theres more important things going on. every one of you prick lickers are data maimed every second you walk OUT your door AND walk IN your door.  

Jesus Rod -- do some fuckin research. 

Knowing I have a cracked tile in my kitchen is going to do what? You could give the government all the information in the world and they would still screw it up. Get with it folks. We still have the freedom to refuse, which is what this government has given us. Do we need the government to hold our hand.