NDP admits it will be tough to kill the HST
The NDP’s Carole James would try for a better deal before killing the HST.
There is no easy way to undo the harmonized sales tax, even if Gordon Campbell and the B.C. Liberals are no longer in power.
NDP finance critic Bruce Ralston says that untangling the HST isn’t as simple as some might think.
Even if New Democrats were to form the provincial government in 2013 and serve notice to the federal government that they intended to end the unpopular tax, the HST isn’t going to disappear in an instant, according to the Surrey-Whalley MLA, who’s also a lawyer.
An NDP government would try to negotiate a “better deal” leading up to the cancellation of the tax, Ralston said. “Once the tax is implemented as it is, it becomes more complicated to disengage from,” he told the Georgia Straight in a phone interview. “I mean, some people have said that you could just snap your fingers and get rid of it. I think that is administratively not realistic.”
The second-term MLA is familiar with the terms of the Comprehensive Integrated Tax Coordination Agreement signed by Finance Minister Colin Hansen and his federal counterpart, Jim Flaherty, in November 2009.
The CITCA states that the termination of the agreement establishing the HST in B.C. “cannot be earlier than the date that is the fifth year anniversary” of the revenue measure’s implementation. The tax took effect on July 1.
While one government may notify the other of its intent to withdraw earlier than five years from the tax’s implementation, the deal specifies that this will be “effective no sooner than the end of the eighteen month period that immediately follows the last day of the calendar quarter in which the written notice of termination is received or any other time period that may be mutually agreed upon between the Parties”.
This means it could take up to 21 months to terminate the HST after the federal government is given notice.
Then there’s the matter of the $1.6 billion in federal transfers given to the B.C. government to help the province transition to the HST system.
Explaining that the CITCA is a five-year agreement, Ralston said that either the entire $1.6 billion or the portions that have already been delivered to the province will have to be paid back if the deal is ended prior to 2015.
“We fought the tax as hard as anyone,” he said. “But now that it is implemented, to find a way out is going to involve negotiations.”
In a letter to Hansen dated March 2, Flaherty wrote that Ottawa had agreed to the provincial government’s proposed schedule of HST transition-funding transfers. These are $250 million within seven days of the tabling of legislation winding down the provincial sales tax, and $769 million on the first day following the implementation of the HST.
The remaining $580 million is due on the first business day after the first anniversary of the HST’s implementation.
It’s the federal government that administers the tax, and according to public-policy professor Doug McArthur, the 18-month notice period provided under the CITCA gives federal authorities time to adjust in order to revert to the goods and services tax. Businesses would also have to reprogram their systems, while the provincial government would have to reinstitute the provincial sales tax.
“All of them can be done, but they’re not simple to do,” the professor told the Straight by phone.
McArthur, who teaches at SFU’s graduate school for public policy, didn’t know whether it would be legal for the provincial government to unilaterally decide that it doesn’t have to adhere to the notice period stipulated by the CITCA.
Doing away with the HST will also involve the fiscal challenge of deciding whether or not the tax is actually good for the economy, according to UBC law professor David Duff.
“Economists would tell you that a sales tax of the type like the HST or the GST is a better tax than the former PST, and the reason why is because there’s this whole system of giving you tax credits for business inputs so you don’t get layer upon layer of tax if there are various stages in the production process,” Duff told the Straight by phone. “If you have an economy that exports, value-added taxes don’t apply to the exports so you don’t have this so-called cascading of taxes, and also your exports are more competitive.”
In a phone interview with the Straight, Chris Delaney, the lead organizer of the Fight HST campaign, downplayed the challenges involved in scrapping the revenue measure.
Delaney said that it will be a “little bit awkward” if the province opts out of the HST deal early. He laid the blame squarely on the B.C. Liberals, saying, “It’s stupid that we have to do this, but that’s their fault for being idiots.”
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Comments
A smart politician in this climate of mounting hatred of all things government, everything BC Liberal - BC Government---(Ottawa too - no majority and none coming soon) will keep it simple and speak to the people of British Columbia on these terms:
"I will rip up the HST agreement the first chance I get - I won't pay Ottawa back one dime because they were complicit in causing the problems -- and if whoever happens to be government at the time - doesn't like it -- British Columbia will move to close every federal office in the province -- and collect all of own taxes----------screw Ottawa were opting out"
Quebec is heading toward separation -- Charest's Liberals are dead over patronage court implications (guilty or not) - and BC can use this for its own advantage---I would not only just say I'm going to do this - I'd promise it.
That's leadership -- the rest of this is simply cowardice - or as famous politico W.C. Fields once said "looking for loopholes" - there aren't any -- Flaherty and Hansen (Harper and Campbell) knowingly colluded - knew the people hadn't been given an opportunity -- and if it were me running the ship I'd have the balls to tell them straight and right now how its going to be - not this weak shit - from more weak actors - who ought to get off the stage and let some of us who are unafraid handle the heavy lifting.
Man, do we ever need a viable, democracy-first third party in this province--or we could just get a NDP leader who actually has guts and a true commitment to the people.
This deal on the HST was not part of their mandate (contract with the voters) during the last election. This government needs now to defend itself, it needs to do the honourable thing which is to seek a clear mandate on this and other issues.
Of course, honour seems to be an alien concept.
Jim Van Rassel
Coquitlam BC
Personally i dont care what services needs to be cut the 1.5 billion went to. KILL THE HST. Also if it was as easy as snapping out fingers to implement the HST, why is it not just as easy to stop it. What is the HST was found iligal because it was considered taxation without representation. Would it not have to stop immediately then?
Colin Hansen, what kind of a Finance person spend money that has a very high potential of not being theirs?
As fare as the NDP saying they couldnt reverse the HST if they got into power, this isnt a surprise. I never thought the NDP would be against it, and if they did get in power I call already hear the layers of talk which would come from them to say they cant change it.
Why does the NDP think they get a free ticket just because the liberals are a dead in the water?
The NDP is now setting us up for "well, we would like to, but we just can't abolish HST" if they get into power.
Jim Van Rassel
Coquitlam BC
Jim Van Rassel
Coquitlam BC
Jim Van Rassel
Coquitlam BC
Sign all the petitions you want, march with Wee Willie Wooden Shoes, call Premier Campbell every dirty name in the book (and it looks like more are invented every day in his name)...when it's all said and done, the HST is here to stay.
And why does it seem every time the NDP dislikes even the most minor of government actions or policies, the first thing they scream for is a public inquiry or judicial review? Is that coming out of the pockets of Agents Orange or your tax dollars?
I wonder if Adrian Dix wants an inquiry into why his parking stall is so far away from the Legislative Assembly's front doors?
The reality as Peter Ralston points out is that negating the deal is going to be complicated. This deal was structured in such a way, I suspect by the Feds to preclude attempts to dismantle it. In a perverse way you have to give them credit for taking advantage of these hapless, panic stricken colonials on the Rock.
Flaherty and Harper knew full well what they were doing when this arrangement was offerred up. They believed and rightly so that the BC Liberals were going to take pretty much all of the flack. You need to understand that Harper has two words in the English language he wants to expunge - liberal or progressive. He has already eliminated progressive.
You know politics is nasty dirty business behind the scenes.
Some of you may want the fire and brimstone that can't be delivered on. I, for one, am pleased to be treated like an adult who knows solutions aren't simple. Now, that's a different style of politics. We could use more of it.
It's not just about being short sighted. That's what the governmental body thinks of the people they are suppose to govern. That the public is so pacified that they won't petition and exercise their democratic rights.They knew exactly what they were doing. If they cared about the public, by whom they are elected by, they would not have been sooo secretive about it in the first place.
Government has become big business, hence, why there is no transparency! Once they are elected, doesn't matter if they are Liberal, Conservative, NDP, or Green... they all become corrupted by power. That's the unfortunate time we live in. The biggest crime is when good, honest people do nothing... the result is what we are facing as a society today.
kreative kaur
- Imagination is more important than knowledge.
Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." - Einstein
Given the said difficulties of withdrawing from this agreement, what effect does Ralston think a vote this Fall or next Winter in the Legislature on a bill reflecting the will of the anti-HST petition would have? That's not clear from the article.
Suppose instead that the courts rule the BC HST unconstitutional. Then what?
Rod Smelser
But feel free to go on about the atrocities of the Fast Ferries and Glen Clark's patio if you must....
From Stan Mortensen:
I hope it is not BC First and its' backers many of whom were a part of the centre-right wars of the late 90's. I had to sit through many agonizing meetings involving some pretty far right nut bars (Enterprise League, Unity, Reform BC, BC First - not their first incarnation)
Not a comfortable position for a centre aligned, gay individual such as myself - did a lot of tongue biting especially with the likes of Kathleen Toth and Heather Stillwell at my table.
Thankfully that is ancient history in politics.
And this federal handicap of former BC Liberal booze minister Brenda Locke--with ties to Greg Moore----Rich Coleman.
From Stan Mortensen:
Fleetwood Port Kells is a rapidly changing area, expect riding to vote for favourite daughter, area resident, Brenda Locke. Expect to see poll breakdowns with Fleetwood, Fraser Heights solidly going for Brenda. These are the major population areas. Clayton Hills could be a toss up with all of the new development in that area. Port Kells likely to vote Conservative, mostly rural areas. Tynehead area will also be a toss up. Net projection will likely see Brenda Locke elected with 2-3% margin
Comment/commentaire by Stan Mortensen 01.22.06 @ 12:44 pm
B.C. General Election 1996: Port Coquitlam
Party Candidate Votes % ±% Expenditures
NDP Mike Farnworth 14,767 46.37% $45,109
BC Liberal Irene Barr 13,310 41.80% $52,332
PDA Rick Howard 1,789 5.62% $1,058
BC Reform Lawrence Glazer 1,335 4.19% $2,965
Green Debra Eilers 417 1.31% $100
Libertarian Michael Wiebe 102 0.32%
Social Credit Stan Mortensen 124 0.39% $1,582
Mr. Mortensen what is your political position on the HST as a former Social Credit candidate - and can I assume you speak for Social Credit leader and name holder Carol Woolsley.
I would submit that you simply don't like Delaney - Vander Zalm and Bonner because of their positions on social issues AND I can speak to this fairly I believe because my company blew Vander Zalm's Dutch shoes off in 2000--so nobody owns me---can you say the same thing?
Question as a former SC Candidate, I can't speak to that as not involved with them, but as a small business owner, consumer and voter, I am opposed not only to the HST but to the way it was backdoored onto the voters. In point of fact, we in our household did sign the petition.
Question - assuming I would speak for Ms. Woolsley, sorry to disappoint you but I haven't spoken with the lady but a couple of times since 2000 and that was to do a courtesy call to advise her of the passing of a dear friend of mine whom she did not like and a call to her concerning the attendance at our commitment ceremony to which she declined.
Statement about Delaney, Zalm and Bonner (huh), I have no feelings one way or the other about their politics or their position on social issues. Certainly I am pleased that Delaney and Vander Zalm have taken on an important "grassroots" issue that affects the financial affairs of every British Columbian
Question - Port Coquitlam 1996, I was very happy with the results with Mike winning FYI his Dad and my Dad worked together periodically in the tow boat industry.
Question - Brenda Locke, she is a neighbour and regardless of her political affiliations provincially she is also a friend. If you bother to read the other federal blog today in this weblog concerning Wendy Yuan, you will see where I currently stand on Federal politics, totally non-aligned. As to my comments about that one Federal Election, guess what I was wrong. But when you look at the fence post for an MP that we have I really did wish Brenda had won. At least we would have had an MP that you could run into at the local markets on occassion.
Who have we voted for recently? Jagrup Brar in Fleetwood, the now late Barry Bell on one occassion. We tend to vote for the candidate not the party afiliation unless we really dislike the party.
Rich Coleman - pulleeze - you might try bloggin my mothers' name under the Surrey Manufactured Homeowners Association and you will see the lack of esteem I hold him in.
I can say absolutely, that no one owns me or my soul other than the bank and my life partner of 29 years. I currently do not support any one particular political party, you can check out my most recent comments on Harvey Oberfelds blog to see my views on politicians.
I must say though I am flattered that you took so much interest in my life history even though we have never met or talked.
I am sorry to say it will be up to the people and their demands that both the federal and provincial politicians rid BC of the HST.
If Mr. Ralston doesn't like the terms of the people then perhaps he should resign.
I think Campbell and Co. could have saved themselves all this agony if they had reduced PST to 5% thereby making the HST just 10%. Since they are digging into pockets for many more of our purchases of consumer products and services they would have still come out with more than they were getting and would still be able to keep the fed money 'given' to BC for initiating the HST. By the way, the fed money is BC taxpayer money anyway. What a shell game.
If anyone is interested you should look at the BC government financial statement for 2009 and check out the amount of dollars the government was not collecting due to PST exemptions. It was quite sizable. The HST was a way for the BC government to cancel their agreement with the people of BC regarding tax exemptions so they could collect enough money to balance their books just in time for the next election.
The challenge for BC voters will be for them to understand that it was their pocket money that created this balance not true economic growth and prosperity.
Drinking is up 25% in the country thank goodness for the cash says are politicians along with violence in families but some site she is just a stupid bitch so don't worry about violence to women it is just a fact of life. And the HST speculation is interesting enough but it would seem the parties who made the agreement would have to be break the agreement or the courts find the HST agreement unconstitutional and it is a deal never done.
I have been a member of the federal Progressive Conservative Party--BC Liberal Party - Reform BC - BC Conservative - and generallylike Carole James as a decent human being.
Perhaps we can have a coffee sometime.
The money is gone, spent and you will NEVER see any of its benefits.
Thats a fact.
It is REALLY IMPORTANT that we ALL make sure our personal info is up to date with Elections BC (by phone or web), and that we stay vigilant on the anti-HST recall initiative.
Do we know anyone who's a new voter, or who hasn't voted regularly? This is our most important opportunity to keep our rights. Perhaps even volunteer some spare time for the recall.
My dad always said, "There's no excuse for not voting. If you don't like who's in power, weed 'em out even if you can't see a great alternative! You should NEVER reward them with another term and deeper roots."
It's up to the citizens of BC to take back this province.
The HST was imposed illegally. We must fix it now! Then the parasites need to be held accountable.
LR
I see both you and Jim Van Rassal are in Poco by any chance do you know each other?
and we can all have a coffee (or tea).
--thanks GStraight
My younger brother has been flirting with the BC Cons., but next time he is down from upcountry I'll have to needle him a bit.
The NDP will deserve everything they get from hopping into bed with this defective motormouth.
If we're stupid enough to elect the NDP based on this nonsense, BC's economy is going to do a nosedive that will crack the bottom wide open. Don't do it, BC. Ignore the Zalm and the chattering magpies at the NDP. Seriously.
Carole James and the lame NDP managed to piss off and disappoint just about everybody who might have supported them in the last election and their positions continue to disappoint. From supporting Gateway to their muted opposition to HST, the BC NDP have gone mushy in the middle.
===============================
David Chudnovsky?
Rod Smelser
Nope. Try a few more degrees East.
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"Mushy Middle" is, to some degree, a copyrighted Svend Robinson bit of jargon.
Rod Smelser
"The tax is in NO WAY unconstitutional or illegal"
That;s called splitting hairs. Every province thsat adopted the HST, debated it first in their legislatures. That is called "precedent" and presents an entirely valid objection to the unilateral implementation in BC. The FACT is, Campbell didn't want a debate because he knew that a sufficient number of Liberal MLAs (such as Blair Lekstrom) would vote against the party line. As it is, those MLAs stand a good chance of losing their seat in a "Recall in the Fall" campaign anyway, and the ensuing by-elections might just take away the Campbell majority.
That the HST implementation is technically legal means nothing.
RickW
practically the definition of technicality. Whining about lack of debate is in fact splitting hairs.
See the angry, bare-faced ogre Van der Zalm for a clue as to what is wrong with the anti-HST set. Think about the implications of voting in a party that not only isn't going to repeal the HST (no they're NOT), but has a track record of paying off the public sector, destroying traditional values, and ruining the economy. Then ask your local HST-fight activist just what the @$#% they're thinking.
Chances are, they're not. Thinking.
Chances are they're long time NDP'ers.
Are you talking about the wet dream conjured up by the Fraser Institute - the one that StatsCan blew out of the water? Or are you talking about the havoc that the BC Libs bestowed on the this province, and just got your parties mixed up?
And as for "splitting hairs", why is BC the only province to enact the HST by fiat, while the other provinces encouraged citizen participation (before the fact)? Are you perchance in favour of totalitarianism?
RickW